Charcoal or not?

[mishalaa]

From his destroying 90% of his recessive beiges because he thought they would never have usable veiling, before he got the violets.

Granted, he didn't destroy them all, and I assume (or at the least, hope) the 10% he did spare were the best of them. But my point was that the pelt market has more or less determined what we as breeders select for and against. There's a lot, I think, this has done in the favor of chinchillas, but I can't help but feel it has also held back if not extinguished new varieties. Sullivan and his beiges are just an example. The only thing I think may have saved any of the ebonies from a similar fate was the belief early on that they could darken standard pelts - again, for the pelt market.

 

[shuboyje]

According to historical documentation charcoals and charcoal crosses were developed for the pelt market with the belief they would be well received. It was though that Pastels(charcoal beige hybrids) could be the true brown in the market that chinchillas lacked, which was the top selling color in many other furs. Unfortunately when attempts were made to market them, they were not well received. The lacked the distinct chinchilla look without the white belly, and more importantly it was found better results were possible much easier through dying off color standard pelts. At this point the chinchilla industry came to the realization that one major strength of chinchilla fur in the market is the modified Agouti pattern(known as chinchilla pattern aka chinchilla cat, chinchilla rabbit). This pattern cannot be reproduced by dying, and cannot be reproduced on faux fur. This lesson was relearned with the extreme blacks who's veiling touched their bellies, but that is another topic.

 

[Siylvat]

According to historical documentation charcoals and charcoal crosses were developed for the pelt market with the belief they would be well received.

What is the Historical documentation? The history of chins and mutations facinates me, and I was wondering if I might be able to find somewhere to read this and things like it?

 

[mishalaa]

Basic Genetics and History of Mutation Chinchillas by Alice Kline, available from the MCBA: http://www.mutationchinchillas.com/Store/general_store.htm

 

[Chinmandan]

Why work with ebonies at all if the market disapproves of dark bellies? Why bother improving them if they're never going to be as desirable as standard pelts, even if they were of equal quality?

I dont quite know what to think of this statement....I can entertain both a valid argument to affirm and to negate it! I think its an outstanding statement that we breed chinchillas exclusively based on the pelt markets demands. However by this logic you would also eliminate whites and sapphires. If thats your goal, I am good with it!

However with such a viable pet market and such a volitile pelt market it does seem necissary to produce quality pets.

It deserves to be preserved in it's "pure" state where possible, regardless of the latest "fad" in colours and/or mutation mixes

"Where Possible" seems to be a rather heavy qualifier.

But in any case, why do we work with these recessive mutations when we can draw the same animals from dominant mutations?

 

[mishalaa]

I did not mean that as an argument, merely as rhetoric. You asked why breed charcoals when we have dominant ebonies. Since any of the ebonies have very limited value on the pelt market, the only other reasons to breed them at all is for the pet market or for personal preference - I accept both as valid reasons, and think those reasons are equally applicable to charcoals, or any mutation.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "draw the same animals from dominant mutations". But you're not going to get a charcoal out of the dominant ebonies. They do have a different look to them, of which there is at least one person who favors!

 

[Mt. Zion Chins]

boy this is so interesting - thanks for all 'the facts' about ebonies and so call 'charcoals'

 

[Chinmandan]

I guess its the difference between a practical method and a non-contributing way of raising animals.....

 

[shuboyje]

I'm not a big fan of charcoals and agree a dominant charcoal strain would be much better(and that is what I am working on isolating in my herd) but are you seriously referencing the genetic mess that is the current state of Ebony chinchillas a practical method of breeding?

Breeding ebonies is about as practical as trying to breed a TOV white violet with your eyes closed. The phenotype gives you very little indication of the genotype, which makes breeding a crap shoot until you have experience with a given animal and line and what they produce. This in turn leads to many breeders pilling mute on top of mute on top of mute for generations in their ebony lines to get the phenotype they are after.

The multiple charcoal series mutes where merged into the mess we call Ebony in the past, it isn't our fault and there is nothing we can do to change that, but in the present responsible breeders can work to isolate the individual strains and as a result leave a better genome for the future to work with.

I guess its the difference between a practical method and a non-contributing way of raising animals.....

 

[mishalaa]

Yea, I don't exactly see it as non-contributing or impractical.

We don't have any idea what genotype creates specific phenotypes we're after - the Broucke charcoal may very well be involved in producing the extra dark "****" ebony (which is, IMO, the current fad color).

If, at some point, we do separate the ebony mutations, then remix them with a great deal of care and control, we can figure out exactly what genotype creates the extra dark "****" eb, then be able to produce them reliably and consistently. When this happens, if it happens, and if charcoal is indeed involved... wouldn't it be nice to have a pure strain of charcoals around?

Just because you don't see an application for a mutation now, doesn't mean it won't ever have one. The chinchilla industry has learned that more than once.

 

[EBB]

Jeff exactly what process are you using to isolate the charcoal gene? Have you had any luck. How do you tell the different varieties? I am not extremely familiar with the whole ebony/charcoal genome. In fact I just recently began attempting to breed dark ebonies and luckily have been able to reproduce them. It would be nice to be able to identify the types of charcoal/ebony if possible so if you know where I can obtain that information preferably accompanied by pictures I would greatly appreciate it.

thanks
~B