So it's just the kit that will not develop at all, not get produced that it. I think people who read this thread should be careful, cause it might cause them to 'try' that kind of pairing just for the sake of it. It really thought there would be a consequence on the mom being bred like that.
Breeding white to white
- Thread starter Sheena
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The way I see it, if someone is just curious, and breeds two white's or two TOV's just to see what would happen, they should not be breeding in the first place. People need to be responsible about it, and strive for better quality animals, not to see what will happen as in a "What if" case.
I used to breed chinchillas, and before I did, I actually did a couple of years of research, because I knew there had to be more involved in it than just, "oh, look at the cute babies!", and "Oh wow, everything goes perfect all of the time." Because it doesn't. I made sure to ask a lot of questions, and absorb as much of the information as I could. I agree that the term "lethal factor" is very misleading, because the babies are just absorbed, but why wouldn't you want to just spend more time and effort to get better quality babies than just breeding for colors?
I used to breed chinchillas, and before I did, I actually did a couple of years of research, because I knew there had to be more involved in it than just, "oh, look at the cute babies!", and "Oh wow, everything goes perfect all of the time." Because it doesn't. I made sure to ask a lot of questions, and absorb as much of the information as I could. I agree that the term "lethal factor" is very misleading, because the babies are just absorbed, but why wouldn't you want to just spend more time and effort to get better quality babies than just breeding for colors?
Spoof
Kung Fu Chinny!
I assume what happened is that the ranches that had the original whites pop up probably bred them together to ensure they got whites. In doing this they probably noticed a significant difference in the number of kits born to white x white pairings vs. white x solid parings.
I know Gunning did this with the velvets and noticed that same thing - that Tov was normally a slow breeder, but Tov to Tov was unusually slow. Breeding Tov to Tov was how he developed it in the first place.
I know Gunning did this with the velvets and noticed that same thing - that Tov was normally a slow breeder, but Tov to Tov was unusually slow. Breeding Tov to Tov was how he developed it in the first place.
mishalaa
Irish Chinchilla
Yes, the legwork was done by ranchers who noted production in white x white and tov x tov pairings over several years. If these pairings were harmful to the dams in any way, I'm sure we would have known that as well, and in less time than it took them to notice the production difference.
We don't know why these genes are lethal (i.e. what they're doing that aborts development) nor exactly when the embryo ceases to develop, but it is early enough to not cause a problem for the mother.
We don't know why these genes are lethal (i.e. what they're doing that aborts development) nor exactly when the embryo ceases to develop, but it is early enough to not cause a problem for the mother.
shuboyje
Well-known member
I'm not so sure about this. Although Black to Black matings are not all that uncommon and can be a good tool to increase veiling white to white matings seem to carry a much more stringent taboo. Even old timers seem to advise against the white to white cross, and although this may be because breeding wise it doesn't make much sense since whites tend to have weaknesses you wouldn't want to compound, I have always been told white to white can lead to damaging results to the mother. Not a sure thing, and certainly not anything to put the lethal in lethal factor, but always was put in a way that it was worse then Black to Black.
I wish we still had access to some of the old archives Jeff. Chris Woods was one who came on and pretty much shot the taboo of the white to white breeding in the foot. She, and others, said that it was due to the weakness of the fur.
I just don't see how it can affect the mother, either way. Even if it did cause an absorption of the fetus, other animals do that as well with no ill effects.
I just don't see how it can affect the mother, either way. Even if it did cause an absorption of the fetus, other animals do that as well with no ill effects.
R
RMC
Guest
****. can and is proved all the time. If you mate a possible ****. Beige ,white ,or black to standard females and produce more then 25 Hetro. kits without a single standard the odds are high enough that you can consider the chin in question ****.
So until and unless someone has shown me a chin that has produced over 25 offspring with out a standard then I will continue to believe in what has already been proven Black and white are lethal in the ****. state.
If a fetus doesn't develop and is not obsorbed by the mother it significantly increases the risk for serious infections and septisemia leading to possible death of the mother.
So unless some one can show me with documented research exactly when the "****" white or "black ' fetus ceases to develop. any claims that it has no effect on the mothers health is nothing more then an assumption without any supporting evidence at all to support the claim.
So until and unless someone has shown me a chin that has produced over 25 offspring with out a standard then I will continue to believe in what has already been proven Black and white are lethal in the ****. state.
If a fetus doesn't develop and is not obsorbed by the mother it significantly increases the risk for serious infections and septisemia leading to possible death of the mother.
So unless some one can show me with documented research exactly when the "****" white or "black ' fetus ceases to develop. any claims that it has no effect on the mothers health is nothing more then an assumption without any supporting evidence at all to support the claim.
On the flip side of that Luke, can you prove it does cause death in the mother? It's my understanding that Ralph Shoots breeds black to black all the time. I'm assuming he's not going to do this if it causes all his black females to die due to septicemia. I actually know of several other breeders who also breed black to black on a regular basis, with no issue in the dams. I also know of several people (not many, maybe 5 or 6?) who have bred white to white and all it's done is produce whites and the mothers were fine.
Do you have documented proof that it does harm the mother? If so, could you write it up in an FAQ that we could have for the entire forum instead of just snippets here and there in a thread? If it's in an old Empress magazine or somewhere, we could ask permission to print it up. I'm assuming that there would have been extensive necropsies and lab work, etc. done to prove this, so that would be valuable as well.
Do you have documented proof that it does harm the mother? If so, could you write it up in an FAQ that we could have for the entire forum instead of just snippets here and there in a thread? If it's in an old Empress magazine or somewhere, we could ask permission to print it up. I'm assuming that there would have been extensive necropsies and lab work, etc. done to prove this, so that would be valuable as well.
HedgeMom
Memory Keeper
That's true of any pregnancy. Fetal development can be disrupted by a number of things, not just a poor genetic code and not just poor genetic code from color. So all you've done is take a general breeding issue and applied it to a specific breeding situation without showing any documentation that a homozygous zygote will develop to a fetal stage.
Unless you can show documentation that a homozygous zygote will advance to the fetal stage, you can't prove that it does have an impact.
R
RMC
Guest
I also have to disagree with the statement that those breeding to "see what happens" shouldn't be breeding" If they are breeding responsible it is this type of people who actually are a great benifit not a hinderance. It was this attitude that we have to thank for the mutations we have today. In fact one of the mutations that are the topic of this thread are directly a result of this type of person.
The very first chin to show any black mutant factor was shown as a standard at a national show. She recieved a first place but the judge commented thatshe shouldn't be bred do to a flaw that was obvious to all (the dark eye rings ).
Bob Gunning perchased the entire herd containing this female ,and bred them to "see what happened" after a lot of hardwork and many years , This chin that "shouldn't be bred" the foundation of the Gunning Black Velvet mutation.
The Tower Beige was another such story. The first beige female only produced one single kit in her kife time . and that was the direct result of the extreme care and hard work That Nick Tower put in to care of the original beige female. Some even attributed his decline in health directly to the hours and hour of care ,effort and dedication to the original beige female and his tireless effort in makeing sure that the beige mutation didn't die out. We have far fewer mutations then many other similiar species. Could this be directly the result of when these new mutations occur people don't make a effort "to see what happens"?
The very first chin to show any black mutant factor was shown as a standard at a national show. She recieved a first place but the judge commented thatshe shouldn't be bred do to a flaw that was obvious to all (the dark eye rings ).
Bob Gunning perchased the entire herd containing this female ,and bred them to "see what happened" after a lot of hardwork and many years , This chin that "shouldn't be bred" the foundation of the Gunning Black Velvet mutation.
The Tower Beige was another such story. The first beige female only produced one single kit in her kife time . and that was the direct result of the extreme care and hard work That Nick Tower put in to care of the original beige female. Some even attributed his decline in health directly to the hours and hour of care ,effort and dedication to the original beige female and his tireless effort in makeing sure that the beige mutation didn't die out. We have far fewer mutations then many other similiar species. Could this be directly the result of when these new mutations occur people don't make a effort "to see what happens"?
R
RMC
Guest
Many people do all kinds of things in their herd that I don't in my herd. I am actually suprised that are advicating breeding black to black. Many times you disagree with ranchers way of breeding as cold and callous, and not something that should be done by people on this board because they care about their chins and don't want to risk their health. So If you want to risk it that is your choice But for what purpose? Why would you potentially risk the life of a a pet. especially when their is little or nothing to gain.
You can extend the veiling on blacks as good with the properly selected standards as you can with a black so why risk it?
You can extend the veiling on blacks as good with the properly selected standards as you can with a black so why risk it?
Where did I say large ranchers are cold and callous? I didn't say that. I have said on forum, and not this one so far, that I won't use collars. I hardly think that translates into "cold and callous."
Also, I know you love trying to put words in my mouth, but I didn't say I'm advocating it. I am answering a question. You, as per usual, are trying to pick a fight. I simply asked you to provide proof of what you are arguing. It would really benefit everyone instead of just starting an argument on this thread, if you would please write an FAQ citing those sources, and providing proof of all the lab work and necropsies that prove it. It would be an excellent FAQ.
You say "potentially risk" which to me means, you can't prove for or against really. If you can, please, give us the information so we can get it out there for everyone to read.
Oh, and I don't breed TOV to TOV or white to white. Never have, don't see a reason for it.
ETA: Changed is to that so it would be correct in a sentence. Don't want Luke thinking I'm changing things up on him.
Also, I know you love trying to put words in my mouth, but I didn't say I'm advocating it. I am answering a question. You, as per usual, are trying to pick a fight. I simply asked you to provide proof of what you are arguing. It would really benefit everyone instead of just starting an argument on this thread, if you would please write an FAQ citing those sources, and providing proof of all the lab work and necropsies that prove it. It would be an excellent FAQ.
You say "potentially risk" which to me means, you can't prove for or against really. If you can, please, give us the information so we can get it out there for everyone to read.
Oh, and I don't breed TOV to TOV or white to white. Never have, don't see a reason for it.
ETA: Changed is to that so it would be correct in a sentence. Don't want Luke thinking I'm changing things up on him.
R
RMC
Guest
Both you and HM have implied on one than more occation that Ranchers are cold and callous and don't care if a chin dies because they will just put another one in it's place.
Just because i post a differant point of view Doesn't mean I am looking to start a fight .Just offer a differant point of view some may not have thought about or considered.
My point of view of posting my own research also is well known. I would much rather post only bits and pieces of it then to have it posted on the web for every intant expert to claim as their own or to twist. I would much rather have it that way then to blatantly post entire paragraphs and numerious pics. of copy righted material on a website without permission or even acknowledgement of their source. Or steal pics. of others chins and post them on my own site and claim or imply they are mine as others have done.
My point is Why risk it? What is the possible gain? I can see it if the potential gain outweighed the risk but in this case for me it doesn't.
Just because i post a differant point of view Doesn't mean I am looking to start a fight .Just offer a differant point of view some may not have thought about or considered.
My point of view of posting my own research also is well known. I would much rather post only bits and pieces of it then to have it posted on the web for every intant expert to claim as their own or to twist. I would much rather have it that way then to blatantly post entire paragraphs and numerious pics. of copy righted material on a website without permission or even acknowledgement of their source. Or steal pics. of others chins and post them on my own site and claim or imply they are mine as others have done.
My point is Why risk it? What is the possible gain? I can see it if the potential gain outweighed the risk but in this case for me it doesn't.
moon
Seymore Fuzzbutts
Are you writing a book, Luke? To publish your research so that others may benefit from it? If you're so concerned about people taking your expertise and twisting it, will you be putting it in a format where it can be quoted and used by others, or are you just going to continue to cryptically refer to it and not give any proof of your assertions?
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HedgeMom
Memory Keeper
I have never implied anything negative about ranchers. I have nothing but the utmost respect for them and the knowledge they have gathered in the ensuing years since Chapman first brought chins to the US. And to INSINUATE otherwise is blatant lying.
I have also never reposted anyone's pictures as my own, posted anyone's research as my own or violated copyright. And I strongly resent you implying that I have.
Luke, all you want to do is pick fights and start trouble. You contribute nothing helpful. You have never once shared anything with a person in crisis. Your "research" is probably a figment of your imagination since you are much too "savvy" to post it. After all, anyone can claim anything, can't they? I could claim to have documented feeding studies using fresh produce vs current pelleted diet but I'm not going to post it because I'm afraid you'll steal it as your own. That doesn't make my research real. And you spouting off your whacko, half-cocked, poorly thought out theories and fallacies is about as valid as the three dollar bill.
No one benefits from your presence.
I have also never reposted anyone's pictures as my own, posted anyone's research as my own or violated copyright. And I strongly resent you implying that I have.
Luke, all you want to do is pick fights and start trouble. You contribute nothing helpful. You have never once shared anything with a person in crisis. Your "research" is probably a figment of your imagination since you are much too "savvy" to post it. After all, anyone can claim anything, can't they? I could claim to have documented feeding studies using fresh produce vs current pelleted diet but I'm not going to post it because I'm afraid you'll steal it as your own. That doesn't make my research real. And you spouting off your whacko, half-cocked, poorly thought out theories and fallacies is about as valid as the three dollar bill.
No one benefits from your presence.
starleomach
Dawnna's Keeper
Ok good enough reason to not breed white to white is you get crappy furred animals. I have also heard that people breed black to black. Maybe they have fewer kits the overall because blacks are slower breeders and you are breeding two of them (you being general not you at any person) Maybe there is an issue with the **** "lethal factor" either way the term lethal factor is a mis-nomer (sp) it doesn't kill anything.
Ranchers can try things that pet and hobby breeders shouldn't because they have the knowledge and experiance. so they can "experiment" as it has been said. Ranchers aren't callous and cruel. if anything they are more humane than many pet people can be.
Ranchers can try things that pet and hobby breeders shouldn't because they have the knowledge and experiance. so they can "experiment" as it has been said. Ranchers aren't callous and cruel. if anything they are more humane than many pet people can be.
mishalaa
Irish Chinchilla
Okay. It is my opinion that the lethal factor has no effect on the dams. I'm not going to try it, and I wouldn't advise others to. But in 50+ years of ranching with these mutes, I have heard only the statistic of production and nothing approaching statistics of death or infection in the dams. I trust the knowledge and intentions of all the ranchers - current and prior - that if risk to females were even a theory, they wouldn't even have gotten to the point where they came up with statistics on production.
However, if there were to be research conducted on the topic - complete histological examination from conception to abortion - I would fully support it.
However, if there were to be research conducted on the topic - complete histological examination from conception to abortion - I would fully support it.
Wow, this topic got way off subject, as to what I intended it to be. I didn't mean the term "breeding just to see what happens" in a bad way. I guess I should explain myself. I am talking hobby breeders, not people who are breeding to see if they can get different mutations. I didn't mean it to sound that way. I meant people who are experienced in mutation development should be involved in it. I guess I don't really know how to explain it. But I think people who have the means, and the money and animals to actually do studies on the development and coloration of the animals should be more involved in it, not justpeople who are trying to make a quick buck on the "new color".
It's ok Sheena, I think I'M the one who start this 'just to try' stuff loll! I know because I've seen it that some people will read something and try it. That's why I warned people. And I'm not talking about experienced breeders. But about anyone with no or not a lot of experience doing this. Of course the 'I will try' must be done, or there would be no improvement! But done by knowledgeable people.
Well said, Anne-Lise. I was tired when I posted last night, and didn't know how to explain what I was trying to say very well. My view is just that while we are trying to see what different kinds of mutations we can get, we must also remember to try and keep the lines healthy and strong. We shouldn't just be breeding the heck out of them until we get some unhealthy, crappy quality animal, just for a new color.
