Breeding Bigger and Bigger Chins

[3CsMommy]

I just don't think it's an accurate comparison between chinchillas and animals that have been domesticated for over ten times as long.

The history, confirmation, and practices behind breeding dogs v breeding chinchillas obviously differ greatly, but the value I see in examples like that is this: all of the animals in question are being genetically manipulated by humans. And as humans, we like Big, we like Pretty, we like Shiny, and the more of them we can get, the better.

While the animals being discussed are apples and oranges, the trends humans doing the breeding consistently select (Bigger body size being the main one discussed here) are very alike, regardless of the species.

I think cautioning people away from only breeding for size or only breeding for color is necessary. Look at how many people thinking of breeding or planning on starting we have crop up here every day wondering about genetics, wondering if a 600 g female is "big enough" without really knowing if she's got a clean belly and sturdy coat. All the traits should matter equally for a healthy captive chin.

 

[addictedtochins]

I have eaten a chicken or two and their legs and joints are much bigger and stronger than a chinchillas, if we continue on the trend for breeding bigger chins and I know we will, we had better learn more about chin orthopedics and how to improve them because their legs are quite small and dainty which can be proven by the fact they can sprain and break their legs from a 4 ft fall. And also take into consideration their legs are short and their bellies are not very far from the ground when walking.

 

[minrex]

The chicken example is not because of being fed too much or too many treats.

I purchased 12 egg laying hens, and 12 cornish rocks (meat chickens). All chickens were raised the same way, fed the same amount of food, and were kept free range. By 2-3 months of age all cornish chickens had to be butchered and killed, as they could barely make it to their feed and water. They were panting after walking just a few steps.

This is exactly what breeding "bigger and bigger" animals does. The purpose for these chickens is to get the biggest animal possible for slaughter, for human consumption. Its genetics, not diet. They were fed the same exact thing my egg and dual purpose (meat and egg) chickens get... I think its cruel that these animals had to live like that, and HAD to be butchered or they'd starve to death.

If we keep breeding bigger and bigger animals and make it into a "genetic" trait and keep on doing it..it won't be long until our chinchillas quality of life reduces greatly. I think for some people its something you need to see for it to hit home.. I saw it with the chickens, and its a **** shame people will create breeds/types of animals to get so large that they need to be put down.

I would love to see a standard come up for the chins where they should be between x and x size to even out competion, and stop people from seeking animals that are going to be so huge they can't move. It may not be today, it may not be tomorrow or 5 years down the line..but sooner or later if we keep going with the "bigger is always better" mindset it's going to happen to these guys too..

The problems that you sometimes see in the Cornish x Rock chickens (which are just crossbreds that do not reproduce their characteristics in further generations) is the fast growth. Cornish x Rocks grow extremely quickly and their physical issues are usually the result of their growth rate, not necessarily their size. By the way, it's possible to keep them healthy and happy throughout their (usually short) lives by providing proper nutrition for the fast-growing birds that they are. I've raised broiler CornishxRocks myself and I honestly don't believe that it's cruel to raise them. You just have to know what you're getting into and not think you're going to be keeping them as pets, because they are most definitely made for eating.

I don't think that comparing chins to these birds is very useful, since CornishxRocks are extremely good at what they were bred for, which is lots of cheap meat, quickly.

 

[RDZCRanch]

The history, confirmation, and practices behind breeding dogs v breeding chinchillas obviously differ greatly, but the value I see in examples like that is this: all of the animals in question are being genetically manipulated by humans. And as humans, we like Big, we like Pretty, we like Shiny, and the more of them we can get, the better.

If bigger is always better, then why did they breed specifically for yorkies, west highland terriers, papillons or any toy breeds? Why breed for silkies or other chicken breeds that don't lay large eggs? The fact remains that the goals behind breeding these different species vary so greatly that there is no accurate comparison between them. We don't breed chinchillas for egg laying ability, meat production, hunting ability, or changing any one thing about them.

While the animals being discussed are apples and oranges, the trends humans doing the breeding consistently select (Bigger body size being the main one discussed here) are very alike, regardless of the species.

But this is saying that we are, in fact, selecting chinchillas purely for size, when we aren't. There is so much that goes into chinchilla breeding, that saying "don't breed purely for size" is redundant. A well rounded chinchilla is what any good, reputable breeder should and does breed for.

I think cautioning people away from only breeding for size or only breeding for color is necessary. Look at how many people thinking of breeding or planning on starting we have crop up here every day wondering about genetics, wondering if a 600 g female is "big enough" without really knowing if she's got a clean belly and sturdy coat. All the traits should matter equally for a healthy captive chin.

You can caution people until you're blue in the face and you still can't influence or control what they are going to do with their breeding. Clearly, in this thread, no one is advocating breeding purely for size or any single trait. Just because a judge picked a larger chinchilla, suddenly we're encouraging breeding too big. Larger chinchillas do not equal health problems. As has been pointed out, rapid growth causes health problems. It's also hard to explain to anyone who doesn't have hands on knowledge with breeding several generations of chinchillas, exactly how difficult it would be to breed for a well rounded chinchilla while breeding for a single trait. It's a constant tug-of-war between the traits we want in chinchillas. You can't go extreme on one without losing some, if not all of the other traits. Those standards keep our chinchillas well rounded and keep them from being bred to ridiculous extremes.

Therese, that to me is not a good comparison. Chickens spend their lives on two legs, not four. Of course their two legs are going to be more muscular supporting all that weight. Chinchilla bodies are also made to use more leverage than muscle. It's why their legs are the shape they are, to better propel their weight. The anatomy of these two animals is different enough that comparing their muscle mass is inaccurate.

 

[Spoof]

because their legs are quite small and dainty which can be proven by the fact they can sprain and break their legs from a 4 ft fall

I had to comment on this. If a human my height - 5'7- fell from that relative distance they would be falling forty eight feet. I could only hope to come away with a sprain and simple break or two.

Chins that are in good condition and routinely jump 4-6 feet of their own accord do not have this issue. Granted the large chin the topic is discussing probably can't get it's lard rear more than a few inches off the floor.

Cornishes are bread for their breasts only to be large. We breed chins to be universally large, provided you must take that comparison route. )

I don't believe it will ever be a problem. While the trend has leaned towards an increase in size with average breeder weight moving from 480-600g to 550ish-700 over the last sixty years - weight hasn't played much of a difference so much as the drive to increase pelt length, size and uniformity.

We all know a massive looking chin can be very light - due to Mark's comments above. We've mixed three different subspecies of chin together so if large chins reliably produced their size we'd see a lot more. What some lines do produce is fat which can also adequately stretch a pelt but makes for a terrible breeder and looser fur.

Did you ever notice that some of the small/tiny males out of large top show lines have phenomenally dense fur? They are genetically producing the same amount of coat their larger relatives do but in a smaller frame due to short man syndrome. har har.

Just some genetics for thought.

 

[Sue]

I disagree entirely with size being a problem. I have a violet male that is six years old and produces my best vc's and he has always been around 860 grams. His dad, who I still have, averages around 600 grams, so he gets his size from his mum. If you chart your animal's weights throughout the year you'll see that they go through cycles, losing and gaining, not necessarily at the same times each year but close. BUT aside from pelt concerns, wouldn't you want your animal to have some weight on him/her if they became sick? Don't we know how quickly they can become anorexic if they're sick?

Our big guy produces the best of all our chins, even better than the standards. His dad does him one better each time but produces smaller litters. Three of his (the dad's) offspring have taken awards on the show table. You've got two variables, the male & the female, each has influence on the litter. I've had females that produce nothing, both small and large. I've also had a huge female (900 grams), pink white, that produced at least three babies every litter for five years (twice a year). She was 10 when she passed.

As we know, females have a limited supply of eggs, but males can produce sperm all their life. I've been breeding for 15 years now and have seen both large and small be big producers. Sometimes it's just about the genetics as to the stronger breeder, just like in humans some are prone to cancer, diabetes, high blood pressure, etc., and others are not.

 

[Amphy64]

Sure, they are different now than the animals we started with in captivity, but who's to say they didn't capture 11 genetically inferior chinchillas and all our work has been to bring them back to what chinchillas should be?

Hmm, there isn't really a 'should' as such anyway, there's only what is more adaptive.


Wild chinnies do still look recognisable, here's a wild brevicaudata:
http://www.chincare.com/IMAGES/southamerica/JJ-wildbrevi5PNLlullaillacoMar01.jpg

and lanigera:
http://www.chincare.com/IMAGES/southamerica/JJ-wildlani2.jpg

but there are still clear differences from the chins on the show table, as would be expected anyway (do the short tails characteristic of wild brevis ever occur in domestic chins still? Just wondering). They do appear smaller, though there may still also be larger chins within the wild population - there are obviously other factors for domestic animals that are going to influence size too, like access to food. It may not actually be possible to continuously breed larger chins even if one wanted to - the genetic variation has to exist within the species. So, we're not necessarily going to see the situation we see in dogs.

Even though breeders are balancing size with other desired qualities, chins are still larger on average (at least those bred for show) than they were. Since that's the case it does probably still make sense to keep an eye out for any problems resulting from that, but as Tara says, it's not something that's happened quickly. I think one breeder was wondering in the most recent NCS Gazette if the problems one of her females had giving birth was due to both parents being especially large chins, will have to look at that again and see what she said.

Chins that are in good condition and routinely jump 4-6 feet of their own accord do not have this issue. Granted the large chin the topic is discussing probably can't get it's lard rear more than a few inches off the floor.

Hah, that's reassuring, I've just seen mine jump five feet. Would a 1000g chin still be able to do that if they wanted, if in good condition and not overweight?

 

[Sue]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoof View Post
Chins that are in good condition and routinely jump 4-6 feet of their own accord do not have this issue. Granted the large chin the topic is discussing probably can't get it's lard rear more than a few inches off the floor.

Hah, that's reassuring, I've just seen mine jump five feet. Would a 1000g chin still be able to do that if they wanted, if in good condition and not overweight?

From Sue: Remember, muscle weighs more than fat!! Exercise those chins!
__________________

 

[kathiva]

I have a question a little bit off topic, if you put 2 very chubby chins that both were show champions, but for example are colors that supposedly if you put together you would get smaller chins, such as 2 sapphires or 2 violets or 2 extra dark ebonies, then would you for sure end up getting smaller chins even though the parents might be of gorgeous fur and big in size? This is what I've heard, but I would like to get your opinion.
Should you not get nice big babies since the parents are nice as well?

 

[RDZCRanch]

I have a question a little bit off topic, if you put 2 very chubby chins that both were show champions, but for example are colors that supposedly if you put together you would get smaller chins, such as 2 sapphires or 2 violets or 2 extra dark ebonies, then would you for sure end up getting smaller chins even though the parents might be of gorgeous fur and big in size? This is what I've heard, but I would like to get your opinion.
Should you not get nice big babies since the parents are nice as well?

You would need to know their backgrounds. If there isn't a large amount of mutation to mutation breeding in the background, they should produce nice quality babies. Many ranchers breed violet to violet if they are nice enough quality. This goes back to the debate about breeding on looks vs. pedigrees. For many mutations you need to utilize both to breed quality into them.

 

[Spoof]

(do the short tails characteristic of wild brevis ever occur in domestic chins still? Just wondering)

Yes, it's like the langi ears - every once in awhile you run into an exceptional specimen. Had a rescue here that could've hang glided, and I have a female in breeding who's tail is as thick as my thumb and only 4" or so long.

Would a 1000g chin still be able to do that if they wanted, if in good condition and not overweight?

I have never seen a chin that naturally dense in top physical condition. Usually if they are that size they are fat and the brevi type tends to be very lazy. I have one here that might be able to if she were so inclined - but she's laid back and non-motivated. She just bums around on the floor with no interest in jumping.

The langi body type also tends to come with that wound up type of personality and interest in investigating all levels of the house. Of course there are many mixes in between the two extremes.

 

[Ash]

I have a question as well. Going back to the chicken comparison to an extent... the hens you are talking about were bred to produce as much meat as quickly as possible, correct?

What if someone were to try and take that mindset to a chinchilla standpoint? It could be a problem if someone were to begin to try and get chins that grow large so as to have a larger pelt, and to do so quickly, while their fur is at its best for the market? That could turn into a problem similar as the Cornish hens, correct?

 

[chechinchillas]

There is actually something some ranchers gave their chins to do just that and it ruins their liver. I can't remember the name.

 

[chinsNdobermans]

Are you thinking of calf manna?

 

[EMSChins]

I have heard "rumors" of people artificially fattening up their chins for show using sunflower seeds and other things not good for chins. I don't think it is as prevalent today as it used to be but it is still out there. Unsuspecting buyers purchase this big fat chin at a show only to find it loses a dramatic amount of weight once they get it home despite keeping it on the same pellet as the original owner. It is blamed on stress of the show and moving to a new environment but I am talking an incredible amount of weight loss here that is never fully recovered even once the chin makes the adjustment. I am sorry but that is just wrong! It is false advertising, poor sportmanship and just plain wrong for the overall health of the chinchilla.

 

[chechinchillas]

No, not calf manna, sunflower seeds was part of it, but there was something else.

 

[Spoof]

What if someone were to try and take that mindset to a chinchilla standpoint? It could be a problem if someone were to begin to try and get chins that grow large so as to have a larger pelt, and to do so quickly, while their fur is at its best for the market? That could turn into a problem similar as the Cornish hens, correct?

It would take another 60 years or so to isolate that. 15-20 generations in chickens comes so much faster than chinchillas. Chickens who are designed to lay several hundred eggs a year, you pick the biggest breasts at four months and move on. Chinchillas have 3-8 babies a year, you have to wait 8 months to see who's grown the most, then another couple for breeding. We're talking 60-100 years to do what the cornish industry did in 20, and the chinchillas have a diminishing return on size vs. baby production.

BTW, ranchers like Shoots and Ritterspach have done just that - made the most desirable pelts money can buy over the last 50 years. People wanted longer/larger/darker and that's what they bred. That's the whole point of the chinchilla fur industry.

There is actually something some ranchers gave their chins to do just that and it ruins their liver. I can't remember the name.

Ralgro. It's put under the tail using a pellet gun. It forces prime and if you don't pelt them a good number will die. The few that survive will be sterile though I've heard of the occasional one surviving and having kits afterwards.

I have heard "rumors" of people artificially fattening up their chins for show using sunflower seeds and other things not good for chins.

I'd rather have that then a ralgro'd animal. At least it'll survive and produce. You could write an entire book on the things people have done to place well in shows, but it's not worth tainting this thread with. )

 

[chinsNdobermans]

Yikes, I had never heard of the Ralgro! It sounds scary!

 

[bchins]

Is there any way to tell if you are buying a chinchilla that has been "injected" with the Ralgro? JW

 

[ticklechin]

There was a big ugly incident on CNQ about Ralgro, not sure if we should go there again.