Breeding Bigger and Bigger Chins

[mark miller]

Ralgro was used a lot in the 80's and early 90's before the pet market took off with chinchillas. It is used to bring a group of animals into fur prime together at once for pelting. The problem with it is it does generally make the animal sterile, so you have to really be certain you're going to pelt the animal before you give the Ralgro. Many ranchers told stories about giving a group of animals Ralgro and then having 1 really blossom and them realizing how good quality it was when it came into fur prime only to know they had ruined it for any chance of using for breeding. This is why we never used Ralgro even when we used to do some pelting. We did wonder whenever we would go to a show and a large rancher would show up with 20 very prime, all smooth looking animals, if they were using Ralgro on them. It would be idiotic to give your best animals Ralgro just to win a show knowing they were ruined for breeding. I'm not gullible enough to believe that it didn't happen though at some shows. The latest thing I've been hearing is that pelt buyers are incouraging ranchers to use Ralgro again with an emphasis being put on wanting to buy pelts that are completely prime. It is possible Ralgro could become more prevelant again used by larger pelt producing ranchers. It is very hard to tell if an animal has been given a dose of Ralgro. I've been told they go off feed for a week and usually lose some weight, but other then that I don't know of any other physical signs. We've showed chins for over 30 years and had years of over 500 babies produced and yet we were never able to have 20 standards all perfectly smooth and prime for any given show. If someone shows up to a show with all perfectly prime, smooth looking show animals without any a little rough, out of condition, I would be a little suspicious of what they were using to get all of their animals smooth at once being different ages. That is about the only way of telling though that I know of and it would still be impossible to prove. Ralgro can be effective to bring more money to a pelt producer, but it can also be very destructive to a show producing herd. I've seen it do both to ranchers that have used it.

 

[ticklechin]

Google Ralgro chinchilla and looks like it is big business in south america.

 

[Spoof]

Is there any way to tell if you are buying a chinchilla that has been "injected" with the Ralgro? JW

The only time you're likely to run into this is buying out a pelt herd where they'll have the recent lineup of pelters done but not pelted yet.

There will be a lump under the tail if it has been done recently or a knot if they were rough. If you get one of the animals later on in life there isn't any difference unless they were sloppy and the base of the tail became scarred or knotted.

For the most part the average U.S. chin buyer shouldn't run into it for any reason as Mark stated above; it's a double edged sword.

 

[Claire D]

I see the Chinchilla Industry Council use Ralgro.

The C.I.C. has gone on record as unanimously condemning the practice of selling chinchilla as pets. It was felt that this has drawn unfavorable attention to the pelting industry by the animal rightists and could possible in the future cause the outlawing of chinchilla pelting, as has already occurred in the U.K.

The C.I.C. in effect, financed the landmark investigation back in 1983-1984 on the use of Ralgro which has revolutionized our pelting industry and without which, the author of this history could not operate.

 

[mark miller]

The Chinchilla Industry Council was created to promote the fur industry of chinchillas. Anything detrimental to the pelting fur industry they are going to be against (ie pet chinchillas). They are as passionate about pelting and the fur industry as we all are about the reasons we have chinchillas and are goals for them. Ralgro is a very good tool for a pelting herd rancher to use. When used correctly it can bring a rancher $10 more per pelt on average then without using it would bring for the same pelts. It has a purpose and that is its only purpose, and I would hope anyone using it would never sell an animal that had been given Ralgro. That would be misleading and totally wrong to do. A reputable breeder or rancher would never do that because if caught, would ruin their reputation and chances of selling breeding stock in the future. As for chinchillas ever getting too big for they're legs to support or for their general good health, there is no market value for their meat like chickens and their only value with larger size comes on a show table where they are judged on many desirable traits, size just being one of them, there are enough checks and balances in place (ie color, fur strength, white belly, bar clarity, conformation, texture, etc)that breeding for just bigger and bigger size would not have any greater value or gain to do so. I think if your chins are getting so large that they aren't active, don't breed regular, appear obese, then you have a problem with diet and nutrition you should address. A large sized active healthy chinchilla should be as healthy and normal as an average size chinchilla with no adverse effects from the bigger size.

 

[ticklechin]

Is it cheating to use Ralgo on show chins?

 

[mark miller]

It's not really cheating because Ralgro does not improve the quality of the animal only the condition of the fur. The only way it could be used is if the breeder intended to pelt or sell as pets all the show animals that had been Ralgrowed. Normally, if a chin is good enough quality to win a show, it's going to be kept by the owner or sold for breeding. Using Ralgro on that quality of chin would be devalue-ing the animal. As it would be worth much more to keep or sell as show breeding stock then as a pelt or pet. So, it really would defeat its own purpose to use on a show animal.

 

[ticklechin]

So ralgro is used to make bigger pelts, and those that are pelted are not show chins?

 

[mark miller]

Ralgro does not make the pelt larger. It syncronizes fur prime in all the animals given the pellet shot at the same time. It allows a rancher to get a group of animals all prime and ready to pelt at once. That way the fur looks smooth on top and the leather is white and very pliable on bottom. This brings increased value to the pelt.

 

[ticklechin]

Ok, I know I sound dumb, but two questions-are show chins pelted? And if not then what are they used for-just selling offspring to other breeders so they can make chins to sell to other breeders? I am not being snarky its a legit question.

 

[Spoof]

are show chins pelted? And if not then what are they used for

Anything that's not being used for breeding or a backup is usually offloaded ASAP. Wether that means selling, pelting or wholesaling. I've been to shows where they pelted or wholesaled anything that wasn't up to par/didn't sell that night if it was in good prime.

That said, the saying goes "When you pelt you know how good of an animal you really had". Which means the shows don't pick the best pelt, the pelt buyer does. Live shows just pick the best breeding animal. Top pelt animals don't often show well... I think we touched on that in another thread somewhere.

 

[RDZCRanch]

Breed the best, pelt the rest.

 

[mark miller]

Dawn, the difference now from the past is more options for the chins a breeder doesn't want to keep. It used to be everyone would go to the shows and decide which chins to keep and offer what was left for sale to other breeders and whatever didn't sell was pelted out. Now, we still keep the very best and offer what's left for sale to other breeders then what's left over can be wholesaled to pet store brokers, sold directly to pet stores, sold directly to people as a pet, or pelt them out. There are a lot more avenues to move animals now and for me, I'm able to sell everything I produce live either to breeders or as pets and have no reason to have to pelt.

 

[ticklechin]

Breed the best, pelt the rest.

What do you do with the best? I thought pelts were the best since that was the purpose of show, pelt quality. If winning show chins are not pelted and if their offspring are winning show chins are not pelted, what is their purpose?

 

[Claire D]

Is it cheating to use Ralgo on show chins?

I would say yes - the chins in full prime (the very reason people use Ralgro) should surpass a chin which is not in full prime on the show bench. Certainly here in the UK a chin which is not in full prime will be beaten by a chin of equal quality which is in full prime.
Therefore, by association, artificially bringing chins into prime in order to show them is cheating.

 

[VolunteerChin22]

You breed the best, as Tab stated - you want to keep the best genes in the herd. I don't think most breeders would pelt a GSC or RGS - they would put it back into breeding -especially a female because the purpose is to keep producing more quality chins. There is no need to pelt one show champion when it can produce more quality animals for you. Every rancher I've tried talking out of a GSC or RGS has flatly (but politely) refused and said that animal was going into breeding.

And isn't it true for the most part that a high placing show chin is worth more sold as a breeder than a pelt? I saw the GSC black from Shoots go for $600 at York one year, and I am sure he could have sold him for more. I paid $250 for a lovely PW from Ryerson who later died and when i discussed having him pelted pretty sure that Rich told me that most pelts are going for around $35, but he could have been quoting what he'd pay for it wholesale, not retail...and he was talking about a PW, so maybe the price on pelts also varies by color? In any case, selling the chin to me for $250 was worth more than his pelt...

I would also think there are varying levels of quality in products made with the pelts so some lesser quality pelts might be desired, but that's a speculation. So that leads me to this question, what show placing, on average, would most pelts that are used/bought by third parties be? 1a, section champ, higher, lower? What would become of pelts that would be less than a 1st place, meaning what would be their commercial purpose if any?

 

[mark miller]

It depends on one's purpose or goals for their own breeding program. Live chins are judged differently and under a little different criteria then pelts are. Show pelts have to be flawless and are judged much harder based on condition of fur prime because once pelted that condition will never change except for oxidation of color over time. With live animals at shows the judges will still pick an animal as the best that may not be perfectly smooth and fur prime if it has more of the other desired traits then the competition that day because the judge knows the animal can still improve even more when it comes into full fur prime. If a breeder wants to concentrate on pelting and getting the most money for their pelts, they breed dark standards with strong fur and longer laniguera body type to produce larger pelts and they use Ralgro to get the fur as smooth and prime as possible at pelting time. If a breeder wants to concentrate on live show animals, they breed to try to attain the most well rounded animal for all the desired traits of a top show animal within the judging system currently used for live animals. It really depends on where your focus is as a breeder. It is very hard to excel at both winning live animal shows and winning pelt shows. There are definitely differences in the way they are judged.

 

[mark miller]

There is no direct comparison between pelts and live animals. It is complicated to explain but, the best pelt is judged by condition first and foremost. The fur has to be strong, stand up with a good loft, smooth and prime with no spots of slipped fur or different length fur showing, then it has to be dark, well veiled, good clarity of color, with a nice white belly. The pelt is also judged on shape, even amount of belly fur on both sides and overall length. A 2nd place extra dark long slender bodied live show animal can end up being a top show winning pelt if prepared and pelted perfectly. Live show animals are judged diffently, some qualities are looked at the same when judged (ie color, fur strength, veiling, belly, etc) but, pelts are desired to match when used to make garments. They select the best quality to match by color. These are used as the primary pelts of the garment. The lesser quality or damaged pelts are cut up and used for trim pieces on the garment. That is why the fur buyer pays more for the better quality pelts since they're used intact on the garment and less for the lesser quality or damaged pelts since they're cut up and only pieces of them can be used.

 

[Claire D]

Mark, the UK has no fur farming & there are only live animals shown. Here in the UK using Ralgro would be cheating (as I said above). I'm surprised it is not seen that way in the US TBH.
Regardless of whether a breeder concentrates on live animals or pelts, even in the US I would suggest that artificially bringing animals into prime (whether shown on the live animal or a pelt using anabolic steroids) is cheating since the animal is not, in fact, being shown in it's (totally) natural state. The animals which have been injected with Ralgro have an artificial advantage over chinchillas/pelts which have not been given the drug.
If one uses the criteria that showing is based on the natural state of the animal then anything which artificially changes that natural state is cheating...........

 

[mark miller]

I do agree with you Claire, using Ralgro to make your live animals all smooth and prime for a show is cheating in my mind and by my personal standards. The reason I stated it's not considered cheating is because there is no way of telling or proving that someone has used Ralgro on their show animals under our current show etiquette rules. You can file a complaint and have someone's animals looked at by the judges, but with no signs of artificially changing their appearance there would be no way of catching them at it. In short, it is cheating, but they would get away with it. To me, it would be idiotic to make your best quality show animals sterile for life just to try and win a show. I don't believe anyone would do that, but it would be possible and they would get away with it under our current rules system.