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Pookin, some of us breeders have full time jobs, families, and other obligations that make updating or paying for a website difficult lol. I try to keep mine updated but free webs is such a pain in the rear to update that for me it's not worth the headache. I do email pictures upon request and will give an honest opinion and run down of a chin's history, but more often than not I invite people to come see them or offer to bring them to a show with a deposit.

And Ryerson generally posts about 1% of the chins they actually have/have available on their site and most of those are pet quality. They have a whole room of chins (numbers depending on where they are in show season) that are available to look through and put under show lights if you visit. If you want to buy from a big breeder you call and ask if they have what you are looking for and most of the time they will pack a couple to bring to a show or you make a trip. I called Shoots a few shows back and told him what I wanted in a standard female and he packed three for me to choose from and we got them all out and looked at them under show lights and discussed strengths and faults. Jags and Ryerson have 1000s of animals and are not going to ever bother to put all they have up on their site. So call or arrange a visit/transport.

And I know you and other buyers are trying often to do this from a distance to arrange a sale, but be warned you should not be buying solely off pictures and lineage. Often it really takes seeing an animal in person to make an educated purchase decision. Not only do you see the actual quality but pictures can be deceiving and they don't help train your eye. Only looking at chins next to each other can you really start developing your eye. That's why I typically encourage newer buyers to buy at shows because you have instant feedback and placing and you can often compare under lights.
 
Everything you have said Volunteer makes absolute sense and I definitely agree with you. I have been in that room at Ryerson's you are talking about as well and I remember specifically asking what makes this one great and what would be a good idea to put with this one etc. I am not saying that having a great website is an absolute but merely that it is a better TOOL for newbies to see and use to compare what is out there. I can honestly say I have looked at Che's website I don't know how many times to see who she put with who and what did their offspring look like and try to think about maybe why she did what she did with this or that amongst other things. I am also saying this about websites as a suggestion from a newbie perspective as advice to those who are smaller ranchers but want to increase increase their visibility. So if someone wishes that new people didn't automatically run to the big boys in my opinion that is one thing you can do to maybe make it a little better is all I am saying.
 
Sometimes trying to get an animal home can be a challenge in and of itself so before I endeavor to try and even deal with that part I want to make sure the animal is worth the hassle.
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This one here is a two way street. I post on my website that anyone is free to inquire not only on what's available BUT also on chinchilla care in general. Why go through all the trouble for every person visiting your website. I see the website like a classified ad, only about 25% of people looking are even interested in buying. And out of THOSE your specific items are only going to appeal to an even SMALLER percentage. Why not tell me what you're looking for, a color, a quality, a gender, a price range...THEN I can be more helpful to you. Furthermore, as many of my chin buddies know...my listed prices aren't always THEIR prices ;) and I give random discounts whenever. So I have a bv male I thought was turning nice...I post him for sale for $200. A week later he's not looking so nice and I feel $150 is more reasonable. Do you think I've updated my site? Heck no. Two toddlers, two teens, a husband and a job...other pets...rescue...wood processing...there's just not enough hours in a day. I'm lucky if I get pictures for the individuals ACTUALLY looking to buy. As you've been told by me, even in my generalized classified ads (you know "chins for sale, inquire about specifics") I usually use "stock photos" of animals I own or have bred. I DO NOT claim the stock photos are the animals for sale, I use them as a tool to show what I breed. Others do too for their generalized classified ads on other sites. On this site, I use actual photos. ALWAYS.

I get that marketing is often helpful and pictures sell. But do you think a majority of people looking for chinchillas care who B22's parents are? Or would even understand if I told them yeah, her mother is V26 and her father is DTCR X82? Father took a 1st at MCBA Atlantic Chapter Show and mother took Res. Section Champ? No, they have no clue what that lingo means. For people inquiring SPECIFICALLY, I provide that info. But it's a lot of work for people who really don't care. Furthermore, I USED to do that. Take weights and post them for all my chins...take pictures of every single one for sale and post their stats...I've owned my website for almost as long as I've been breeding. You know how many people found me through my website and purchased based on my website? About a solid 1% LOL! It's not worth it. I'm not retired, chinchillas aren't my only business. Heck even JAGS site is often out of date. Do I view their website? sometimes. Do I use it as a purchasing tool? Not really. I'll tell them what I'm looking for, lines, gender, attributes...THEN they tell me if they've got what I want.

Photos are only good for pet people, because real breeders know they're about useless. Stats are only good for real breeders because pet people know they're about useless. AND to top it all off...my lists of availability change about daily. FURTHERMORE, even if I changed them daily to account for animals I DEFINITELY intended to sell...it wouldn't be accurate. WHY? Because if a person contacts me and says, do you have (for example) an extra dark ebony female for sale? Hmmm...I have one...I wasn't listing her as I did intend to keep her...but if someone's interested...hmmm, maybe...I DO have her daughter growing out and really don't NEED her and really don't like this about her...I SURE DO HAVE ONE! So it's just best to know (as I've always said) who you're dealing with. I don't base a whole lot off of websites. If I want a nice gray I check with Mish first because she works with my lines, she values pure standards, she's super local and I consider her a friend ;) If she doesn't have what I'm looking for I'll check with Alicyn Cross...why? Because they have good websites? Nah. Cause I know they breed good standards and I have respect for their policies. IDK, like I said, I kept a very UTD website for a VERY long time. It didn't boost sales and my website is very near the top of search engines. It's easy to find, easy to navigate. Prices, pictures and parentage were always plainly listed. Parents (on my herd page) had their lineage, their show placings and their weights plainly listed. It didn't do much for sales. So why trouble myself?

I honestly think at some point I'm going to get to the same point in my hobby that many already have. No showing due to the politics and cost...no website because it doesn't honestly promote much...
 
..no website because it doesn't honestly promote much..
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This is not true. I do all of my normal sales through the site, never sold a chin at show. Sold maybe 5 here on the classifieds in the last decade.

Just having a site is a good thing, even if it is only one page with a little contact info and a couple nice pictures of chins.

I think the reality is that if you have a sales outlet you don't look for more sales. JAGS was extremely active on here taking pictures of chins and updating their site before they got big into wholesaling. Now they have no need to push chins - people come to them.

I am in the same boat. I have never produced enough chins to meet the demand here and earlier this spring midway through getting out I had the opportunity to go big(er) and enjoy it. I took it. I normally get 5-7 people inquiring per month and make an average of 5 sales. It's an unusually high ratio but I am in a unique area where you can not get chins certain times of the year from a pet store. My site sales page only has an email address and usually nothing else. For years I have run experiments on what to put on my site sales page and it doesn't matter. People come to buy in waves. Some months I have no sales, the next I'll have 8-10.

I have had numerous people tell me if I put a number on the site I would sell a lot more as the internet is still not big here. I don't because I don't have any chins to sell!

On the other hand, I will go out of my way to sell to other breeders. You are welcome to come see my herd, grade some chins, play with everyone... etc. If you are looking for something specific I will do my best to give you an honest opinion of what I do or don't have.

I'm actually kind of excited, I have more room than I've ever had before, with 32 dedicated breeding cages and 30 weaning cages set up with the room for an additional 30 weaning. That doesn't mean they are all full, I have 22 in breeding and 7 in holding. But the room to grow is there if I can keep chins around.

So I have a bv male I thought was turning nice...I post him for sale for $200. A week later he's not looking so nice and I feel $150 is more reasonable. Do you think I've updated my site? Heck no.
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So true! If someone asks I go out and look at who is available and make a decision on price then.

My site hasn't changed since 2003. The bulk of the information has been the same since 1999. Every once in awhile I fix something broken and change the date on it. I'd love to update it with all the information I've learned over the years but time... :))
 
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I agree on the maybe I have something I've been holding back that I might sell in the right mood - I just added two female kits today to my ad on here but haven't got them on the site. Had someone come by or contacted me before I posted I would have mused the sale.
 
The JAGS website is way outdated as far as the animal sales page. All animals shown there have sold or have been put into breeding here over a year ago. Pics have been left on there to use as examples. Wholesaling is not the reason its outdated, the biggest reason is lack of time. Another one is that a lot of the people all wanted the animals delivered to them as they would not travel to come and get them. And what I mean by delivered to them I mean many wanted them delivered to their doorstep. When I had more time and traveled a lot I did deliver many animals all over the country. New job and not as much time off so do not travel to be able to deliver other than to some of the shows. If I needed to push sales I would make the time but I have had enough demand for our animals compared to the production I have had the last year or so that it is not a big priority to update the site all the time. My wife takes the photos and does the site and she has way to much going on to find the time also. Even when the website was up to date it was only a few animals posted of the hundreds available to chose from. A very large portion of pet buyers will buy from pics on a website but most breeders would never do so. Pics are very subjective, they can show a average quality chin as real nice and then again some very nice chins you could spend all day shooting pics and never get a photo to really show how great they are. Breeders buy most all of their breeding animals in person or from people who will send them what they know they want. Most of my top lines do not go for wholesale, they are either sold to other breeders or put into breeding here. It is also not just the big boys who sell for big dollars for average quality. I see junk being sold for big bucks all the time by smaller breeders also. I have sold many animals of top quality at far less than what many others would charge for animals of the same quality. Riven noted big boys buying animals and reselling them for much more and I know some have, but I have also seen many people selling animals they have bought from me for more than twice what they paid for them originally, even after breeding them for years. I try to educate people without mandating my way as the only way to do things. My goal is to sell quality animals at a fair price and many times have sold for less than I should have to help people build their herds. I for one enjoy watching people I have helped get started with animals doing well on the show table just as much if not more than doing well myself. When people like Lemlers, Alicyn Cross, Tammy Ruppert and many others do well it shows me the animals they got from me have helped their programs along with their knowledge to bred them right.
 
I for one enjoy watching people I have helped get started with animals doing well on the show table just as much if not more than doing well myself.
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I LOVE this attribute...sadly, not all (or many) of the big boys think like this. It's usually the smaller herds that have that mentality. I make no secret a lot of my herd started with the Longeneckers and Hykes. When our offspring from those animals did well at show, Edgar and Denny were proud. Others could care less, they could care less if their animals reproduce at all let alone the quality they're reproducing.

As far as buying and reselling, it's a crap practice IMO. I've seen it on both ends and I don't approve. When I buy an animal, if it doesn't work out in my herd, I will often resell it for what I purchased it for. Chinchilla value generally doesn't diminish a whole lot over a short time (a couple of years). But it shouldn't gain value either unless the new owner took the time to buy a kit, grow it out, show it and then resell it for a bit higher if it didn't work in their herd.

And I knew your website (JAGS) was way outdated ;) it was a non-issue for me as I know you two are very busy people and NOT just with chins. I also knew that if I wanted to check availability of what I was looking for (and not just looking AT on your site) to personally take a few seconds to PM you. It's not that huge of an effort on the buyers part to ASK what's available. While photo shopping can be fun, it often doesn't pay off in the long run. I purchase a LOT of animals sight unseen because I don't travel much due to time constraints. So how do I purchase an animal I've never seen? Not by asking for a million photos. It's by sending a simple email to a breeder I TRUST...asking for VERY specific qualities or lines and seeing what's available.

As far as the other topics of this thread, such as "I know the good breeders, and you aren't one of them"...because I've never taken the time to hear about you...doesn't that make anyone else's skin crawl? I mean, to the point of (as I said previously) asking for a million photos and then coming back with...oh, well, we're only looking for show quality animals (after originally inquiring about a 4mos old chin) from big name breeders.
 
Just got done feeding and while feeding caught myself checking to see how many breeding animals I have bought from small breeders. While it was not a ton of them there were many of them. I do not buy just average chins from any breeder large or small as when I buy an animal it is to improve a quality or trait I feel I need more of. If the animals are not better than what I am showing why spend money on them unless they help me towards my goals.
 
I'm not going to disagree with Jags on some smaller breeders trying to increase prices on animals from big breeders, either way, it's trying to sell a chin off a name. In one case it's a big breeder trying to use their name to sell a chin they didn't breed, in the other it's a small breeder trying to use the big breeders name to sell a chin they didn't breed...

I've tried breeding off looks and pedigrees. I had some very nice females that I got rid of when I started getting into shows because they didn't have fancy pedigrees, just got them from a guy who got them from a breeder who used to be in the area and does show. I've always regretted selling them, looking back, they were nicer, and produced better stuff than some animals I've paid hundreds more for... theory. Pedigrees only mean as much as the chin they're sold with.
 
Holy cow there's a lot going on in this thread! I'm glad so many people have made worthwhile contributions because I don't even know where to start.

I aspire to be like Juanita. I hope to answer questions to the best of my ability and if people choose not to listen know that I've done all that I can. I am not that Zen yet. Just ask Brenda when she has to listen to my rants about issues that come up with Empress. Thank goodness I have resources to consult because I still have so many questions myself...I don't know it all and don't profess to. Never will. If I stop learning, all is lost! I appreciate people who ask questions and take the time to think about how the answers apply to their situation. Ask Dan how many times I used the phrase "this is just what works for me..." at the National. That doesn't mean it's universally applicable! :) I LOVE the "big guys" for sharing their knowledge, for the time and effort they put in to developing the industry & the show system, etc. It's my responsibility to filter all that they are willing to share and make it work for me.

I love competing, it's just my nature. I will continue to go to as many chin shows as I can because I learn something new at every single show, I love the social opportunities & talking chin in person, and because success at shows helps me make connections & market my animals. I am a small breeder in the middle of nowhere. I feel like i have to show and continually prove that I can compete "with the big guys". OK, it's true, I also love to win LOL! But I want to win to prove that you don't have to have a huge herd to produce quality, that you can follow the rules, play fair, and succeed not on numbers alone but because you educate yourself and dedicate yourself to excellence in all aspects of the animals' care and breeding. There are many breeders, big and small, out there doing the same thing. I have the best luck getting to know the people I rely on for advice or for an occasional animal, because my perception of a person might be very different from someone else's. I have to take responsibility for the choices I make, and for me it's far safer to evaluate a person based on my experiences with him/her than to rely solely on other people's opinions.

Wow, can I ramble or what?! Now everyone knows how Brenda feels when I get on a rant!! ;)
 
I do love trying to teach newbies care and health but I get so frustrated when they act like they know it all only to treat my animals horribly. It's just frustrating.
 
"expert" comment that most annoys me: "You can't get really good animals from a small breeder. They're so small they have to keep all the good stuff for themselves." And the ever-annoying "Never buy a breeder from someone. Nobody ever sells a good breeder." (as in a proven animal)

REALLY? And where am I going to put all these animals? I am a SMALL breeder. I have LESS room to keep all the good stuff! For instance, I have eight runs. One of those runs is home to the black male that sired this years Empress national grand show champion. The national grand show champion, also a black male, now has his own run. What am I supposed to do with the reserve national grand show champion male? He's a black also. I can't justify 3/8 of my runs devoted to black males! Something has to give because I have LIMITED space where others may not be limited.

And you thought the rant was over! :dance3:
 
;)HUMMMMMM could this possibly be an appropriate time to send you one of those emails I was talking about Wendy??? LOL That is of course unless Jessica gets a new boarder at her house.. :) At the very least I'd personally be happy with you making a bunch of your gorgeous blacks...Won't hear any complaints from me...
 
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I am so pleased MCBA Nationals falls on a weekend when I can attend this year! I told the girls in the black runs to focus on black kits so we can all road trip to the East in March. As stated in a previous post, shows are a great opportunity to look around, compare chins, and potentially purchase chins that meet your criteria. And I am completely prepared for Randy & Ron to make fun of me for calling the chins by name (having a flashback to 2009!). Maybe I can come home with half-empty carriers!;)
 
designer chins said:
"expert" comment that most annoys me: "You can't get really good animals from a small breeder. They're so small they have to keep all the good stuff for themselves." And the ever-annoying "Never buy a breeder from someone. Nobody ever sells a good breeder." (as in a proven animal)

REALLY? And where am I going to put all these animals? I am a SMALL breeder. I have LESS room to keep all the good stuff! For instance, I have eight runs. One of those runs is home to the black male that sired this years Empress national grand show champion. The national grand show champion, also a black male, now has his own run. What am I supposed to do with the reserve national grand show champion male? He's a black also. I can't justify 3/8 of my runs devoted to black males! Something has to give because I have LIMITED space where others may not be limited.

And you thought the rant was over! :dance3:
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I agree with this - I have five runs, now used to have three. I just don't have room to keep everyone. Where I am now I have to sell almost all of my offspring - hopefully in my next house I won't have to do that with so many but it's just logistics now. My loss someone else's gain :)
 
REALLY? And where am I going to put all these animals? I am a SMALL breeder. I have LESS room to keep all the good stuff!
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I totally agree here! Then it comes down to who do you get rid of, do you keep the parents you know are aging but producing awesome babies or replace with the awesome babies...

Someone has to go but either way the buyer ends up ahead. :))
 
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