New On The Scene-EXPERT!

[Vyxxin]

So, am I the only one who's extremely tired of this? I'm not talking about people getting their new/first chinchilla from craigslist. No, I'm talking about the ones "smart" enough to go to a (usually) "big name breeder" (or one they think is of high repute) and are auto-experts?

A few months back I argued with one owner/newer breeder, that you don't have to travel out of state to obtain high quality animals. That there were, in fact, good breeders of high quality animals all over the country, and, quite locally. Not believed, the new owner insisted on going to the next state to purchase from the "TOP breeders" This is NOT somebody that was even interested in buying from me or someone I was trying to sell to. Just someone who thought they "knew" who the "good breeders" were because those breeders had a big name. Does that in itself annoy any of you "smaller guys" like it does me? We've worked for our reputation, often providing as much if not more customer service than the "big names" because we have the time to? Does it bother any of you "smaller guys" that your reputation comes under question simply because you don't have a well KNOWN name? Even though you regularly compete in shows, do well at those shows and have a spotless record in the chin community?

Next scenario (hey, I never said this was going to be short LOL) are the "color/gentics" experts. You know, those who think they know what an animal is classed as or what a mutation/line should look like as an adult because so and so told them or because their friend has an adult and it looks different? To be more specific Was selling a white recently. This animal (had it been shown) would've been classed as predominantly white. I have pretty reasonable experience showing chinchillas and I can say that with confidence. The animal was white, no dark guard hair, no pattern...white. With the exception of a few dark hairs in it's tail. I mentioned this to a prospective buyer who informed me this was not a white, it was a mosaic it hurt my brain. Maybe I've grown impatient with too many years? Second situation, a woman wants a black velvet. She's inquiring about a 2mos old kit. I send her pictures of this BABY who (as many will know) hasn't fully developed his veiling yet. She questions this telling me he doesn't look like her friends ADULT black velvet and asking (too many times) if I thought he'd look like that as an adult. I try my very best to explain that a LOT of the time bv's aren't born with full mask/veiling and that it develops over time. I eventually give up after directing her to pics of his mother and saying I have no worries he will develop the same as her and that she's not obligated to buy.

Last "expert" scenario. Contacted by a potential buyer about a 4mos old gray male I'm selling. After TONS of pictures I'm informed (keep in mind, this is a 4mos old chinchilla) that

we want show quality, because the guy we bought our chins from is number two in the nation in chins.

Well, I'm not even sure what that means?!? Number two for what? Production? Last I knew (I could be wrong, correct me if I am) point standings were not kept track of on that level? So legitimately they could only be talking about production which means what exactly? Furthermore, what does that have to do with future purchases?!? I get not purchasing anything that's not grown as you cannot assess kits BUT then why inquire about a 4mos old chin to begin with?!?

Do you feel my pain? LOL! Seriously though, I know this is part of providing customer service but I really do wish people were as knowledgeable as they thought they were so I didn't have to prove myself. I honestly feel if I had 2000 animals and 30yrs in the business and a NAME everybody recognized I'd be listend to easier. I get validating information but if you're going to argue a point you think your sure of with somebody you think may not be...at least KNOW you're right first. Meh, just ranting I suppose. May come under fire for being insensitive...but it seems this year has been rampant with self-professed chin experts. Just because you buy a few animals from a top breeder does not make you an expert. Heck, I'm not an expert and NEVER give advice I'm not 100% sure of or I SAY I'm not sure of it. Just me?


ETA- Not trying to take ANYTHING away from the "big names" most of them have worked very hard to get where they are...just the same though, big doesn't mean they have better animals or that they're always the best people...it DOES lend way to a larger accumulation of knowledge but often these self experts haven't gained info from the big names, just animals...they get their INFO from BYB's and friends

 

[Dreamlite]

I just had one of those moments with a small breeder who is semi local to me. I have a friend who has been wanting a pink white and no matter how I matchmy chins I get every color than that. So I contacted this lady and inquired about a pw male she had listed. I asked the price, age, if it had a pedigree and so on. She replied that it was a young adult (no age), was$ 275 no supplies with the chin, and no pedigree (she's just ahobby breeder, gesh!). So I asked how she felt justified asking that price for a chin with no show lines. And she got rude and told me they were out of big breeder lines and she doesn't need paper to prove hey are good. I'm sorry but that price is double what a pw goes for in my area for a desent chin. So I asked about who she got her breeders from and was informed that she went to get 'pets' and bred them so that's why she didn't have pedigrees. Rolls eyes. And that she is breeding a pink white with a mosaic. Athis pairing has had 2 litters of deformed kits and she was pissed when I told her that it may be genetic (hense the original pet sale) or that it might be due to the lethal factor. She replies that the big breeder told her that the lethal factor only countsif its the same color. So I gues pink WHITE and WHITE mosaic aren't bother white chins. **** what do I know? I've only been breeding and showing for 8ish years now. But she got 14 chins in the last 9 months and she's a expert. Another peoblem she pointed out was with her violet. She had a violet male in with a mosaic and a standard and just was upset that she hasn't got any violet babies. I asked if they were vc females and sh told me there is no such thing. They either breed their color or they are duds. So after talking to this lady for about 2 weeks, she askes me to leave her alone and never ever email her again. She doesn't like to educate beginers!

Wow the nerve of some people. I can't imagine being that sure, that I would dismiss advise when wshes clearly having problems.

 

[tunes]

Without getting into everything else, though I probably will address some of it later after I get done working, Dreamlite - the lethal factor does NOT mean deformed kits will be born. I don't know why people think that. It means that it is possible that LESS kits will be born. If these two are having malformed kits it's because they are a crappy mix genetically, not because of a lethal factor. I know of several people who breed white to white, and a "large well known breeder" who used to breed black to black. They didn't have kits dropping dead, they just may have had less production.

Also, the main reason not to breed white to white is because white's typically have less desirable fur. If you put two chins together with not great fur, you usually get.....more not great furred animals.

Most likely more later.

 

[Vyxxin]

On, on the subject of whites cause after 8yrs of specializing in them and trying my best to learn about them and showing them...the person who informed me that my chin wasn't a predominantly white it was a mosaic...also told me another breeder'd told THEM that you can't breed mosaic to mosaic or pure white to pure white but it was okay to breed mosaic to pure white?!? I tried my best to clear that up and they did seem to understand what I was saying and believed me (I hope)

 

[Kansas City Chinchillas]

People like that are frustrating. They obviously know little about chins. Unfortunately sometimes folks with a little bit of information believe they know more than the do. They may have misunderstood what someone said or the information they got was not correct. Accurate chin info isn't real common.

When dealing with folks like this I try to educate and direct them to accurate information sources but if they aren't receptive there is little you can do to help them. People like this are the source of frustration for folks in all walks of life. It isn't limited to chins. Just try to take a deep breath and be glad you were able to give them accurate information. Hopefully someday they will find out you were correct. But don't hold your breath. :wink3:

 

[Pookinaround]

So, am I the only one who's extremely tired of this? I'm not talking about people getting their new/first chinchilla from craigslist. No, I'm talking about the ones "smart" enough to go to a (usually) "big name breeder" (or one they think is of high repute) and are auto-experts?

A few months back I argued with one owner/newer breeder, that you don't have to travel out of state to obtain high quality animals. That there were, in fact, good breeders of high quality animals all over the country, and, quite locally. Not believed, the new owner insisted on going to the next state to purchase from the "TOP breeders" This is NOT somebody that was even interested in buying from me or someone I was trying to sell to. Just someone who thought they "knew" who the "good breeders" were because those breeders had a big name. Does that in itself annoy any of you "smaller guys" like it does me? We've worked for our reputation, often providing as much if not more customer service than the "big names" because we have the time to? Does it bother any of you "smaller guys" that your reputation comes under question simply because you don't have a well KNOWN name? Even though you regularly compete in shows, do well at those shows and have a spotless record in the chin community?

I have a sneaky suspicion that I know who this is that you are talking about in this part of your post...While I am glad that we cleared the air after our initial encounter I want to say a few things about this...

I have always liked chins and at the beginning of this year I felt I was finally at a point in my life where I could comfortably have them and yes I was thinking about going into it with the intent to make it more than just a "pet keeping" hobby. Being new to the world of chins I had no idea where I should go at first or who I should talk to to get started. So I started looking around and yes I was looking at different ads on sites like the dreaded CL and such. Plain and simple I hated what I saw and at least in my immediate area I didn't think that there were any super great chin breeders around. I bought my first 3 chins intended for breeding from Ryersons. If you want to know the real reason why I chose them was because of how they showed a photo of each individual chin they were offering for sale and when looked through several chin websites I learned they were a very reputable breeder so that is why I drove 4 hours away to get my first chins. I wanted to do the best I could and I DO NOT see a thing wrong with that. Che is another one that has a great website where you can see all of her animals and also her breeders with details and photos of each. That's why I have bought a total of 7 chins from her and yes she is another SMALLER breeder I traveled about 4 hours to get chins from. Moral of the story it has more to do with marketing and having a detailed website than anything else as far as animal selection goes. Somewhere between Ryerson and Che I learned of Shoots's reputation and I will admit that sold itself to me regardless of how his website was done and considering his accomplishments this is rightfully so.

Since then I have begun buying from other smaller breeders as well as the bigger names. I have been learning a lot from many sources but I just want to say from a newbie perspective it is simply EASIER to get started buying from a larger ranch and also larger ranches have more established and well known reputations than do smaller breeders so many times newbies haven't even heard of the smaller breeders and simply just don't know they are there or even who they are for that matter.

 

[RDZCRanch]

As a "smaller" breeder, I started out with animals from the big ranchers and wouldn't buy from the hobby breeders. I don't see a problem with that mentality. I do buy from other smaller breeders now, but the foundation of my herd are animals from ranchers that are the "top" breeders because they consistently kick some booty at nationals and have done so for many years.

That said, I do also get frustrated with brand new owners or people who have not even owned a chinchilla trying to correct me or tell me I am wrong. I had one customer (we are good friends now) try to tell me that the beige v/c I was selling was a violet based on her picture. She was so insistent that she drove 45 minutes to my house to find that what I had was a beige v/c...which she didn't want. We have a good laugh about it now, but it was frustrating at the time.

 

[Vyxxin]

As I said though, not knowing IS part of the problem. Do you know how many people a day I deal with who ONLY think the big names are reputable? In my opinion, large numbers and show awards don't make a reputable breeder. How they deal with customers, how they go about their breeding practices, and how long they've had a favorable reputation is more important. I've been around to have learned "the dirt" as have many others. It's there, it isn't hard to find as dirt never is. My issue is the "know it alls" who take what one breeder says as the gospel and then, because they're now educated, promotes the information without a clue and will not listen to anyone else. As far as marketing goes, Rich and Jim do about the best job at that. Have I purchased animals from them? Sure, exactly one a piece! My herd has come from a smaller, not well known breeder in MD. Now out of business but at the time I founded my herd hardly any of my customers had known about this rich resource and I often directed them to him. Why? Not because he had a spiffy website (no, he didn't have any)...because he had a million GSC awards? Surely not, as he had some but not a lot by any standards. Why then? Because he was a very sweet guy with a genuine passion for chinchillas and their CARE, not just making money off of them. He was super helpful to customers, very on the up and up (refusing to sell an animal he thought may have health issues) and from the smaller guys in the know, had a very good reputation of standing behind his animals...AND, they were both good producers and good quality producers. I get marketing...I really do...but I've come to learn that anyone can create a spiffy website. Heck, half the BYB's and unscrupulous "rescues" I know of have nice websites that would convince you to surrender your child to them let alone your chin.

I'm just saying, a LOT of these people...such as yourself Rhonda, have the intellect to KNOW better. Maybe chalk it up to egos? IDK. What I DO know is that for us "long timers"...sure we haven't been around forever...we haven't judged shows...we may not even register on the radar...but for buyers (especially) to say "well I was told otherwise" is one thing...for them to say "I was told otherwise" and then ARGUE it without much research is friggin irritating!

Furthermore, I don't care how nice a breeders trophy room is when a breeders animals are:

Known to not reproduce or reproduce shoddy animals repeatedly regardless of pairing
Known to have health issues repeatedly
Known to have ebony in the lines w/o obvious disclosure
Known to have been tampered with for showing

Etc...etc...etc...the list of boycotts for me is endless LOL! The end result is all the same, that is not my definition of reputable.

And to you Tabitha, I get what you're saying. I'm not saying to NOT purchase from the big boys that do well at show. If you aren't sure of quality it's the easiest way to get quality animals. But the same big boy, with unfavorable morals, will sell you their crap because they know they can and not give a care. Don't think THAT happens? It does. I know it does and have seen it first hand. Maybe not intentionally. They don't exactly try to fleece...more like, you come to them because of their awards reputation and then don't specify you want an animal of high enough quality to breed. They see you as another pet person and give you that quality in return. Even the big boys have pet only offspring. Everyone does. When I first started organizing my breeding herd I purchased PROVEN SHOW animals with decent placings. I usually purchased at the show. It's a good thing. But when someone new on the scene argues with people not so new on the scene that they haven't a clue because they were told otherwise or that our animals must be crap because they haven't heard of us (like they did a whole lot of research in the first place) it gets frustrating...and is compounded when this is multiple times a day LOL

 

[Godins Chinchillas]

I hear what everyone is saying. It's got to be the biggest reason why I don't like to sell to pet people. I feel like I'm banging my head on the door when it comes to them. I try to educate them but it just always seems to backfire.

Having a "big" name or having tons of awards doesn't necessarily mean your the best or are the most ethical. And I'm with Vyxxin-have dealt with "big" name people only to see the "dirt". I'm not necessarily talking about crappy animals but seeing how they treat newbies and charge large prices for subpar animals, cheating on the table, health issues and how they dealt with them-for example knowing you have teeth issues but still use them in breeding, and so on.

Quite frankly I'd rather go to a smaller breeder that have consistently proven themselves worthy of having a big name. For example, Wendy T. She has consistently proven herself to be able to run with the big dogs on the table and beat them....and she's only got 20 something females in breeding. She's one of my first choices to go to for an ebony or black. Same with some of the girls on the west coast.

I think it is buyer beware with everyone. I'm finding myself going more to the smaller breeders now that I have been taken advantage by the bigger people. The smaller breeders still have the same lines I got from the bigger people.

 

[lilchinchilla]

When I first began breeding, sixteen years ago, I had to go to bigger breeders, because there wasn't much on the island here to choose from and not many breeders on the internet at the time to go to. Over time though, I did buy from big and small breeders, just depended on what they had and what I was looking for.
You can get great quality chinchillas from a small breeder, just as you can from a bigger breeder.

I think it depends on what you are looking for and from who. Some breeders are more known for specific mutations or their standard herd, more so than other mutations in their herds.
As for expert owners, I offer my advice, if they don't choose to take it, that is their choice. You can only do so much, and at least at the end of the day, you know what you did was right, even if the information is ignored or not accepted.

 

[ticklechin]

In my opinion, large numbers and show awards don't make a reputable breeder.

Amen. When I seen some of the pictures of the "show quality animals" that the newbie breeders buy from the top names, most look like culls and since the newbies don't know any better, its a "XYZ" chin so it must be good. I don't think the long time smaller breeders I know of would take advantage of newbies like that.

 

[Spoof]

Oh, I know all of that pain.

You can only do so much, and at least at the end of the day, you know what you did was right, even if the information is ignored or not accepted.

I agree with this and I'm in the same boat you are.

I gave up on reputation a few years ago. I do it because I love to do it.

 

[Dark Star]

"Large Breeders"....you mean all 5 of them.

 

[Pookinaround]

For the record Angela I also want to mention that during our initial encounter if I remember correctly I think how we got to the topic of quality during our argument was me saying that chin that girl was selling was basically crap and I never claimed to be any type of expert but the point I was trying to make at the time was that rather than buy something like that chin that particular girl was selling I'd rather go to OH and get a quality animal. I had no problem investing the time to drive to get something nice which I did.

Also when I first started out I was leary of actually wanting to show my animals because quite honestly a lot of times I have seen with other types of animal shows how political it can be and I get really turned off by how some people can be and quite frankly I didn't want to deal with it. HOWEVER since then I want to say I have been meeting a LOT of great people here in the chin world and there are even a few I have made friends with go figure (I have always been pretty much of a loner and have always prefered the company of animals to people.) But now from actually going to a show and visiting and meeting different chin people I have opened up and actually am now looking forward to showing some animals next season.

 

[Vyxxin]

Rhonda,
This thread isn't about you specifically. You're just one of many I had to argue my point with and at the end of the day not much further ahead for it. I deal with a million of this type yearly. People who'd rather go to "so and so" because they have the awards.

Heck with awards. As with dogs and the AKC website, an AKC registration or show winnings isn't an endorsement saying it's a good animal, it's a good breeder, or it's worth breeding.

I've seen big names with trophy walls breed malo chins because by the time the animal died it didn't matter. I've seen them sell animals from the same lines to breeders KNOWING full well the intent to breed those animals. I know big names that sold animals that refused to breed. Not one, dozens. Didn't care. Period. I know big names who turned up their nose at pet people and smaller breeders, didn't have the time. I think if all of the chinchilla breeders had a card stating their policies and breeding ethics to hand out to their customers BEFORE purchase....well...thigs would be differen't is all I'm saying. Furthermore, I'm with whoever said (think it was Jess) that I'd rather buy from a smaller guy or one with a smaller NAME (note, NAME not reputation) as (honestly) they generally have a lot more to lose. You see a post or get a PM about so and so "big name" who sold you a malo chin as a breeder...meh, big name, loads of animals...either you're lying or YOU did something wrong or at the very worst...it was a fluke. You hear of one of US smaller breeders, doing something wrong it kills our "business" in a flash.

Speaking to you Rhonda, do you recall early in our discussions me mentioning that in the chinchilla community everyone has big ears for the dirt especially on smaller breeders? I do my research when I purchase anything. From chins to bananas. I don't buy where it's cheapest. I don't buy where they have the best of the best. I buy where the bananas aren't totally crap and the shop owner doesn't secretly despise me, treat me like I'm beneath them or try to sell me subpar bananas because I have no clue what a banana should look and taste like. I know the histories on a lot of the big boys. The on the screen and off the screen stuff. Some of the things I wish I didn't as it makes it hard to be polite in public. Other things it's a "yeah it happens" but as the point of this thread...educate yourself. Don't THINK you've done so...DO so. Some people don't care about ethics/morals/reputation like I do. They'll buy a nice animal (if they know what a nice animal is) from anyone or (if they don't know) buy an animal based on the outer appearing big name.

I think I'll continue to buy my animals from the less well known breeders. It has always given me a good selection, less crap and better customer service. AND I know they're not eyeing me up as total scum because I don't have 1000 animals minimum.

And to whoever said all 5 of them...exactly. The large pelting herds of yesteryear are fading into the background. Soon all buyers will have are us smaller people with good REPUTATIONS.

 

[ticklechin]

To me, just as a observer of the show/breeding scene I am more impressed when I see a small breeder producing nice quality animals from no name herds, it shows they actually know how to pick a animal, put it together with another animal and produce a even better animal. The "lazy" way is buy two "xyz" chins and hope for the best. Its not learning IMO, its hoping.

 

[Pookinaround]

I definitely do not doubt that the things you mentioned happen all of the time and I will say you have made a lot of very valid points. I have been very pleased so far with everyone I have gotten though. And I think getting to know some of the other smaller breeders has been a very helpful and important part of my personal learning process but that evolves over time and through participation. I think it is worth mentioning that this site C&H in particular (which you actually told me about so thanks for that) was a valuable asset in meeting, networking with and getting to know the who's who as far as smaller breeders go.

 

[Vyxxin]

furthermore do you think these nice trophy walls come from selecting anything of showing age and going to the show? That's what us smaller breeders HAVE to do we don't just select the creme of the crop and bring home our trophies. We take what we have and HOPE some are big enough or in prime enough to compete. Last season (ashamedly) I had to show a 5mos old chin. I NEVER show that young, don't like to. He did well, too res. phase champ I think (went to live with his new mummy in Canada). But the point remains, if I had the money to have a large herd like that I could fill a room with trophies in a hurry. Not to discount it. They do have nice animals. But for now us smaller breeders DO have to work very hard (often harder) for our trophies. And yeah, my pedigrees are "no name" breeders a LOT of the time unless you go many generations back. I've got a TON of DTCR, some MISH (sometimes tracing back to RAF lol) and some MYSC...and for my small herd (of 21 breeding females currently) those lines have done just fine by me. They all eventually trace back to bigger names. That'd be no secret...but I didn't have to buy the big names to know I was getting quality. I got educated and hand picked the quality I wanted to work with.

 

[tunes]

Speaking to you Rhonda, do you recall early in our discussions me mentioning that in the chinchilla community everyone has big ears for the dirt especially on smaller breeders? I do my research when I purchase anything. From chins to bananas. I don't buy where it's cheapest. I don't buy where they have the best of the best. I buy where the bananas aren't totally crap and the shop owner doesn't secretly despise me, treat me like I'm beneath them or try to sell me subpar bananas because I have no clue what a banana should look and taste like. I know the histories on a lot of the big boys. The on the screen and off the screen stuff. Some of the things I wish I didn't as it makes it hard to be polite in public. Other things it's a "yeah it happens" but as the point of this thread...educate yourself. Don't THINK you've done so...DO so. Some people don't care about ethics/morals/reputation like I do. They'll buy a nice animal (if they know what a nice animal is) from anyone or (if they don't know) buy an animal based on the outer appearing big name.

Ange - You are dead on with this comment. I've been in ranches that I have left crying.
Animals laying around, on the edge of dying with broken backs, beaten up, whatever, that are just left there to die because the ranchers didn't give a crap enough to take care of it. I'm not jumping up and down to support cervical dislocation. I think it's barbaric and I don't care who does it - but it's better than laying there with a broken back, trying to drag yourself around the cage because you're in pain and you can't eat or drink.

I know of a very well known, very well respected "big boy" who made the comment once that he doesn't bother educating people, or if he does, doesn't care if they listen. When they kill their chin through stupidity, they will just come back and put more money in his pocket and buy another one.

Another one deliberately sold red tinted chins to a guy who was color blind and laughed about it. The guy who bought the chins was a complete a**, but that's not the point. He paid good money for top quality animals, and because he couldn't see them for himself, he TRUSTED this person to sell him what he was asking for. He sure didn't get it.
He was also well known for trading on his name when selling chins to noobs. They came because he was so and so, paid a ridiculous amount of money for a chin, and left thinking they had the next world champion! Didn't quite work out that way.

I don't participate in the show world anymore. I did once upon a time. Frankly, I can't afford it. The closest show to me that I can make it to is ECBC Nationals (the past two years), but I'm not a member of Empress and don't intend to be. Even if I did want to show, the politics, the back stabbing, the immaturity, and the ridiculous behavior of some of the officers of these organizations was enough to turn my stomach. I don't want to be a part of that and I won't be.

I don't buy chins because of names anymore. I did in the beginning. I don't anymore. I could give a crap about a spiffy website. I care about how they treat their chins and how they treat their customers. That's it. You can have a chin I want badly, but if you're a jerk to people and treat your chins like nothing but breeding factories and merchandise, then I would rather live without that chin than give you my hard earned cash. Everybody talks a big line about not buying from pet stores that sell animals because of their mistreatment, well, put your money where your mouth is. It's no different than buying from some well known breeders and hobbyists.

As far as not listening to information, pffft, whatever. This forum is a perfect example of that. You can have 30 people explaining to you that what you said is wrong, but it won't matter. The bottom line is that you are going to listen to what you want to hear and do what you want to do. If you've got your heart set on breeding that 300 gm female to that 300 gm male with a GREAT personality, then that's what you're going to do. Then in a few months when they deliver, and nobody wants the offspring, you'll dump them on a rescue or a shelter and go your merry way. It's always been that way, it's always going to be that way. You educate folks the best you can, and you move on.

 

[Vyxxin]

I want to reiterate at this point (as I've done several times already) I'm not trying to detract from or badmouth ALL "big name" ranchers. I'm saying just because you have a big name, big numbers and big awards doesn't make you the be all end all of reputation. A LOT of these guys have bad reputations if you do your research. And what do us little guys get? Not listened to because we don't have thousands of animals, decades of experience and dozens of trophies.

I've never been turned off, only more determined, by show politics. I'm a competitive person though. But when the information I give gets underplayed because "so and so big name has better animals or so and so big name does things this way" it really ticks me off. I know you can lead a person to knowledge "but you can't make them think" but c'mon!

I never understood that mentality. When I joined the chin community close to a decade ago I was disappointed that there wasn't MORE information...MORE information sharing. Now there is and people don't care to listen to it?!? Maybe it's the difference between personality types. IDK. Even something as simple as "on your own time, why not check out c-n-h, it's the largest online resource for chin owners"...I've outright been told "I'm not even getting involved" (and then they did, happily) or "sure, I'll check it out" and then they never do...

I guess my real complaint and point of argument is big name/numbers/awards does NOT equal reputation. It just doesn't. And the other side of the thread...how long does one argue in vain with people who just do not care to listen? Again, I'm not talking about Timmy who's feeding his chin corn chips. I'm talking about Thomas who is just educated enough to be dangerous, LOL!