How early is too early to wean? Mom can't feed all the kits, is losing weight

[Dreamlite]

Sounds like you and your breeder friend need to keep doing research. Not many breeders breed for homo beige but that doesn't mean you should use nonpedigreed furchewers to do it. Have your chins been shown or graded? What qualities are you using to pair your chins besides color? You are worried about her at 650 grams but her normal weight is 600? I never wrry until they pass their prebreeding weight. And 600 is the bare minium size for a breeding female, so unless she has spectaular color/coat something then she's not offering much for kits. Breeding is about making the next generation better.

 

[greychins]

I spent several months before purchasing any chins trying to find homo-beige chinchillas for sale. No one had any available. Chinchillas.com, the local breeders, nobody had a homo-beige. I even went to the MCBA show in the neighboring state, trying to find someone who had homo-beige available. Eventually I just broke down a got a few hetero-beiges and decided to breed my own homo-beige chinchillas. Although I remain on the looking for homo-beige chinchillas, I still have yet to see any for sale. It's probably good I started breeding them myself. I now have five homo-beige females, two hetero-beige females, and a hetero-beige male. I hope by this time next year to have bred a homo-beige male that I can use as a stud. My plan is for whichever female gives birth to him to be be paired with Fifel, my white-gray male. It's a breeding scheme I've been working on for almost a full year now, come June. So far I have mostly spent that time learning that hetero-beige cross hetero-beige produces an annoyingly high number of standard gray and hetero-beige. Wah wah waaah. But yeah, if you have a homo-beige male, let me know.

I have to say, I think you should have done a little more research into breeding before jumping in headfirst. First off, you shouldn't just be looking for a specific color. Don't get me wrong, if you want to breed beiges, fine, but you need to find animals that have done well at show. Not just "whatever homo beige you can find," you should be looking for a beige that's placed 1st or higher at show, and then use that animal to work towards your goal of breeding homo beiges. Breed animals that are actual quality animals, worthy of breeding, rather than just breeding them because they are a color you like.

From the way you speak of your animals, I would tend to lean towards the thought that none have been shown, none have pedigrees, you have no idea of the background of most of them.... not the right way to start breeding. You want to know what you're passing on to those kits.

I find this comment:

So far I have mostly spent that time learning that hetero-beige cross hetero-beige produces an annoyingly high number of standard gray and hetero-beige

so ignorant that it makes me want to *facepalm*

That's just how breeding works. Standard greys are the backbone of any good breeding program, and that most people breed their chins back to standard, so as to keep the quality high. In my breeding runs, I have two mute males, so I have mostly standards. To keep the quality high. Those "annoyingly high number of standards" could be high quality standards that you or someone else could use in breeding, but I would bet, based on the way you speak of your chins, that you're churning out a ton of pet quality chins that will end up in rescues at some point.

Going again on the breeding results, take a look at this --> http://www.silverfallchinchilla.com/genetics/ChinCrossCalculator.aspx

^^ You can input the color chins you have to see what you will get. It's basic genetics, but here's the thing -- you breed two hetero beiges, and you will get 50% hetero beige, 25% standard, and 25% homo beige. 25% is not a lot, and that's just a statistic. I have a black velvet male and a standard female together -- I have so far gotten two litters of three standards each. In reality, it should be 50/50 standards/black velvets. But reality doesn't exactly pay attention to probability -- you get what you get.

I think you need to rethink how you're breeding the animals, as you don't seem to be improving the species or even really trying to. Let me ask you -- now that you have these several homo beiges that you want -- what do you plan to do with them? Sell baby homo beiges? Show homo beiges? What? I'm curious to know.

 

[Becky]

Homo beige is more rare, as many don't breed for them. To produce a good one, you need two super nice hetero beige chins, with strong standards in their backgrounds.

I'm not sure what you mean by a white-gray. There is no such color. Is she a standard or a mosaic? Also, just so you know, chinchilla males are not called studs, even when they are used for breeding situations with multiple females.

 

[EricaWieser]

"You are worried about her at 650 grams but her normal weight is 600? I never wrry until they pass their prebreeding weight." She dropped 30 grams in three days. Of course I was worried.

"I have to say, I think you should have done a little more research into breeding before jumping in headfirst. First off, you shouldn't just be looking for a specific color. Don't get me wrong, if you want to breed beiges, fine, but you need to find animals that have done well at show. Not just "whatever homo beige you can find," you should be looking for a beige that's placed 1st or higher at show, and then use that animal to work towards your goal of breeding homo beiges. Breed animals that are actual quality animals, worthy of breeding, rather than just breeding them because they are a color you like."
I have shown my animals. They come from good stock and my sapphire white female took two blue dots and almost best in class at the MCBA chinchilla show in Spartanburg a few months ago. My chinchillas have very long, full, fluffy fur and are of excellent breeding quality.
Here is a video of the new female I just acquired, Fluffernutter. She is six weeks old in this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELkiiJ5LuYc
You can see that she is of excellent fur quality and extremely fluffy.

"I find this comment:
Quote:
So far I have mostly spent that time learning that hetero-beige cross hetero-beige produces an annoyingly high number of standard gray and hetero-beige
so ignorant that it makes me want to *facepalm*"
It was just a quip saying that yes, 3 out of 4 of the offspring of hetero-beige cross hetero-beige are not the genotype I'm looking for (homo-beige). Don't freak out; I'm a Ph.D. biology student and an experienced selective breeder. It was just a joke...

"I think you need to rethink how you're breeding the animals, as you don't seem to be improving the species or even really trying to. Let me ask you -- now that you have these several homo beiges that you want -- what do you plan to do with them? Sell baby homo beiges?" Once I have a homo-beige herd I plan to breed them for improved fur length and quality. Everybody here keeps insisting that grays are 'necessary' for some reason. There is absolutely no genetic foundation for that statement. I want an all beige herd. You can select for long fur in the background of beige or in the background of gray; it's not the background but the genetic diversity and history of selectively breeding for long, unbroken fur that gives the chinchillas the nice fur quality.

I'm not sure what you mean by a white-gray. There is no such color. Is she a standard or a mosaic? Also, just so you know, chinchilla males are not called studs, even when they are used for breeding situations with multiple females.

White-gray is the genotype. I use genotype instead of phenotype to describe my chins.

I call them studs. *shrugs*

 

[Chinmama]

When was there a MCBA show in Spartanburg? I missed it...

 

[Vyxxin]

Not to be rude but someone with a biology degree...would not confuse pheno and geno type white-gray is a PHENOTYPE. It's a PHENOTYPE of at least FIVE different genotypes that I can personally think of.

The chin that was shown, did you breed her or buy her? BIG difference in buying quality and being able to assess it yourself and breed for it.

Anyone who calls a 6week old BABY chinchilla quality cannot be taken seriously. It has potential. Sure. But just from the video I see poor fur quality. Probably just kit fur, but still.
!

All I'm saying is everyone is right, you seem to be trying to act knowledgeable but you're slipping up left and right on it. Stay and find a mentor, get together with some good breeders from THIS FORUM or RECOMMENDED by THIS FORUM and you should be well on your way.

 

[Chinmama]

Okay, the show was in Rock Hill in November, not Spartanburg. I was about to flip out if I missed a show I was that close to! http://www.mutationchinchillas.com/southeast-coastal-chapter-show3.html

 

[Vyxxin]

Just wanted to add as editing time is over, one show is nothing. ONE decent animal in a string of 3rds is nothing. It's learning to improve and improving over time and proving it on the show table. Your location was off by about an hour and a half but there was a show in Rock Hill a few months ago. Just the same, like I said, one show doesn't make you an authority and referring to what you can see with the naked eye as genotype doesn't make you a biology professor

 

[RDZCRanch]

You cannot always use genotype to describe the color of a chinchilla. The names we have given them are based solely on their phenotype. Also, there is no "grey" gene in chinchillas so saying white-grey is genotypically incorrect. It's a (in no particular order) SSVVWwaabb meaning a hetero white since there is a lethal factor for our dominant white chinchillas making a WW impossible. Chinchillas, like most animals, follow a wild type format for their genes. The grey color is simply an absence of the other color coat mutations. There is a mutation that caused the grey coloration to become the norm, but it's an old mutation and if you REALLY want to go back a few hundred million years, everything is a mutation.

I also agree that you cannot tell the quality of a chinchilla at 6 weeks. You seem to be touching on the surface of what is correct, but have many misconceptions. Stud is simply an incorrect term when you are talking about chinchillas...so is buck or doe (those are lagamorphs). It's not bad to be corrected, but it is important to know when you are not correct and try to change it for the better. Granted, the delivery could be much better...but misunderstandings are all too common on the internet. You can't see the person so you can't tell what tone they are trying to inflect in their comments.

The new baby is very cute, but a brevi face which tends to appear "fluffy" is not synonymous with quality. She could only grow to 500g even if both parents are 1000g. When she pushes out her baby fur, the adult fur could be lacking density, clarity or even have a singed, woolly look to the fur. You really can't predict how a baby will turn out...it's one of the many frustrations of breeding any animal.

 

[EricaWieser]

Okay, the show was in Rock Hill in November, not Spartanburg. I was about to flip out if I missed a show I was that close to! http://www.mutationchinchillas.com/southeast-coastal-chapter-show3.html

I apologize. I confused the name of the city with the name of a different one I went to for a fish show. I'm in North Carolina and not very good with geography, my apologies.

To all the haters: please be civil. I was asking for weaning advice, not your judgement on my breeding techniques. Thank you kindly for the dry powdered milk advice and other baby foods. I and my baby chinchillas and their mom appreciate your help.

 

[threewingedfury]

To all the haters: please be civil. I was asking for weaning advice, not your judgement on my breeding techniques.

I don't see where anyone is "hating", Erica. What has been said in this thread is the truth, and no one has tried to say that you're wrong or not knowledgeable, it's just part of trying to educate not only you, but also the general population that views this thread. The forum is here to educate not only breeders, but pet owners and enthusiasts as well. If information is posted incorrectly on a forum that can be viewed by millions of users - why would the community want misinformation floating around? That's why they're so quick to try to correct, to teach the difference.

When I first got into chins, I was stubborn, thought I knew everything and pushed off anything a person on this forum would say to me because I had "researched" left and right and thought I was 100% correct. I was far from right, and it took me quite some time to realize, there's a reason why the members of this forum and the previous (CnQ) act as they do - because they care for breed and want to educate those who don't understand it exactly. I hope that you can use some of the information that has been given to you and not push it away as I once did. This forum is a great source of information and it includes pet owners, hobby breeders as well as highly informative resources who have been breeding for decades.

I'm far from a chin "know-it-all", but I'm just a couple hours from you and I'm willing to help you get on the right track as we need good breeders here in NC - most have sold out of their herds and it's a shame. Sometimes the words on the Internet or a forum come off as hasty, but there's usually good intentions behind them.

 

[Zoaea]

As a fellow scientist I would also like to point out, science is the art of discovery, of admitting that we humans do not know everything, but want to try to understand our natural world. Even a PhD in biology will have endless amounts of data to learn. Do not take corrections as a personal attack, rather as a scientist push back the natural defensive reaction and open your mind to new avenues of knowledge. When people correct you on Chinchilla terms you should take it seriously, because, it will be hard for chinchilla breeders to take you seriously if you are using the wrong terms, much like if you were at a biology seminar and were using lay terms instead of scientific ones to make your points. I have found the threads of this forum very helpful in expanding basic knowledge of chinchilla breeding, and chinchilla shows are the best way to interact with long time experienced breeders to garner knowledge that just isn't found in books right now.

PS glad to hear they like the dried formula, hope they grow out well for you!

 

[Dreamlite]

No one is anywhere close to a hater on this thread. We are just pointing out places for improvement and you are taking it as a personal attack. Pedigrees are important even in this situation. You have no idea how old she is. She could be 4 like you think with many years ahead or she could be 12 and ready to be retired. If he doesn't have his information right to track bloodlines then its safe to assume his breeding records are also questionable. Also how do you know the chins are not related? Without a pedigree you are only guessing. Do research on furchewing. NO breeder of any quality will tell you a furchewer is ok to use in breeding. They are unpredictable. She may start chewing again tomorrow or never again, but the point is that her kits will carry the defect and keep spreading 'bad' genetics. As far as pheno and geno we always use the common names here. Its majorly confusing, grey white could be mosaic or standard. That's why each color has a specific name. Stud is just incorrect, male is the proper term. What is your breeding goals? Do you plan on showing or just selling homo beige pets? You keep talking about improving fur length. Almost every breeder except angoras try to breed for short dense fur, not long fluffy fur. you have been to a show and should have a basic understanding of some of the terms. We are only trying to educate and help. If you are unwilling to listed to advise then you have come to the wrong place. This thread is far from being mean.

 

[EricaWieser]

Daisy's weight today is 618 grams. This makes the updated plot:
Feb 18th: 904 grams
She gave birth on Feb 22nd
Feb 24th: 760 grams
Mar 10th: 735 grams
Mar 21st: 680 grams
Mar 24th: 650 grams
Mar 27th: 618 grams
Here is a picture: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v415/Okiimiru/daisysweight_zps083bff28.png

I'm going to take the two bigger kits away from her. The kits' weights are:
159 grams
154 grams
132 grams (I fed that before weighing it, so it's probably closer to 120 ).

 

[Godins Chinchillas]

I'm not going to touch on any of the other stuff people are mentioning but would like to know a couple of things.

What type of feed are you using?
Is mom on a supplement?

What is your goal with producing long hair homo beiges? All you are going to get is long hair lazy fur that probably lacks density and fur strength. What good is that? It's not something I want here and in fact are starting to use more shorter tighter furred standards to tighten up my medium length standards because I feel they are getting longer. There's no use for longer furred animals in the chinchilla market. Who wants a lazy furred animal?. I think your breeding practices should really be looked over again. I don't believe you are heading in the right direction.

To add-and this is not meant to be taken as being mean. Fluffernutter is too young to be considered excellent breeding quality. If she was born here I would be wholesaling her. I just don't see anything in her fur that I would keep to grow out and show/keep for breeding. But that is just my opinion based on your video. If you do use her I would get a really tight short/medium fur length and heavily dense male with a clear tip to pair with her......and that is where standards are needed in breeding...to improve on the mutes and other standards.

 

[EricaWieser]

What type of feed are you using?
Is mom on a supplement?

I feed my chinchillas Small World Rabbit Feed Complete Rabbit Pet Food, which is $8 for 25 pounds from Walmart. A lot of people recommend Mazuri chinchilla food but I prefer Small World for the following reasons:

Mazuri and Small World Rabbit Feed have very similar ingredients. Here, here's a link to the Small World Rabbit Food http://www.walmart.com/ip/Small-World-Rabbit-Feed-Complete-Rabbit-Pet-Food-25-lb/10323572
Ingredients: "Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Wheat Middling's, Roughage Products, Soybean Meal, Feeding Oatmeal, DL-Methionine, Yucca Schidigera..." and then a whole lot of vitamins.
Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude Protein - Min - 16.00%.
Crude Fat - Min - 2.50%.
Crude Fiber - Min - 15.00%.
Crude Fiber - Max - 20.00%.
Calcium - Min - 0.75%.
Calcium - Max - 1.25%.
Phosphorus - Min - 0.50%.
Salt - Min - 0.25%.
Salt - Max - 0.75%.
Sodium - Max - 0.30%.
Vitamin A - Min - 3,000 Iu/Lb.

Here is a list of Mazuri's ingredients: "Dehydrated alfalfa meal, dehulled soybean meal, wheat middlings, ground soybean hulls, ground oats, wheat germ, dried beet pulp, cane molasses, soybean oil..." and then vitamins. Info from http://www.mazuri.com/tabstemplate-4.aspx

The Mazuri brand food actually has a lot more sugar (dried beet pulp, cane molasses) and oil (soybean oil) than the Small World Rabbit Food.
Guaranteed Analysis
Crude protein not less than 20.0%
Crude fat not less than 3.0%
Crude fiber not more than 18.0%
Calcium not less than 0.75%
Calcium not more than 1.3%
Phosphorus not less than 0.50%
Sodium not less than 0.10%
Sodium not more than 0.40%
Moisture not more than 11.0%
Ash not more than 9.0%

Is mom on a supplement?

I give my chinchillas fresh hay, sticks from outside, cheerios, willow wreaths from the dollar store, grape vine wreaths from the dollar store, cardboard boxes, unvarnished wicker baskets,quaker rice cakes, unbleached loofa gourds, and sometimes a pita chip like once every few months. They have salt licks and those bird calcium pineapples in their cages. I also have recently given the chinchillas rawhide because no, it's not meat. I'm sure chinchillas stumble across dried up carcasses in the wild. They didn't evolve in a bubble. If they want to eat dried skin, they can. It seems more natural to me than depriving them of it. (I'm sure you're all going to attack me for it, though). I've given them a bread heel once or twice, too.

Things I don't give them: Fat. Sugar. I don't feed them dried fruit or oily foods. I don't think they eat much of either in the wild.

 

[AZChins]

It's not the same at all. The quality of the ingredients in that rabbit feed is not very good. The protein content is not at all the same, the ingredients are not the same. The Walmart brand is milled by a completely different company with no real quality control procedures. It's not a good pellet at all and you really shouldn't prefer it. I had a local "breeder" feeding these pellets and her animals were thin and not healthy at all. I highly recommend switching from a Walmart brand RABBIT pellet to something else since I have seen what those pellets can do to chins....

I don't even know what to say about the second part of your last post. It's a little strange to me. Do you really feed your chins bread? Why would you do that? Sticks from outside?

 

[AZChins]

I think you are just feeding those pellets because you are trying to save money. Is that it? Seriously...I feel bad for any chins on those "rabbit" pellets. There's a reason why they are selling them cheap at Walmart....

(Please, no one take what that person says as being acceptable for pellets or really much else...PLEASE.)

 

[jags]

The big problem of comparing wild chins to what we have today is that they are not wild any more and have different needs being that they are in captivity. People really do not have a good idea of what all they ate in the wild as it was never really studied. The fat and oil missing from the Walmart rabbit feed is what your chin needs to keep her condition up and is why she is losing so much while raising her kits. She is not getting the necessary calories to maintain her weight or condition. While I am not pushing Mazuri there are much better choices than what you are using.

 

[AZChins]

Yes, much, much better choices are out there! If the Walmart pellets were adequate, all of us would be using them. But, they are a very poor choice for chins and jags is right, that is precisely the reason why these chins aren't doing well. I can't imagine a chin having to maintain her own body weight much less provide sustenance for kits.