GSC with malo

[Godins Chinchillas]

Thanks Riven-

I would never want to place an animal in a home that could cause the new owner pain in the long run. That is not what my breeding goal is. I didn't say I have euthanized them-just thinking what is ethical. It is hard enough finding pet homes for the healthy ones. It is going to be even more difficult to try to find someone who wants a poss mallo chin. Diabetes and malloclusion are completely different diseases. Malloclusion is very painful.

Like I said I haven't decided. Right now, I am growing them out and seeing what happens and what I should do. I need to talk to hubby about having him neuter the boys.

Jessica

 

[Riven]

I have had this issue in my head as well. Where is it best to draw the line. No one wants to euthanize a chin, kit or otherwise. But with a lot of healthy chins in rescues waiting for homes ( I have 5 here waiting for homes or to be ready to go to homes), I've often wondered if it's fair to send out potential heart aches, wondered if they'll know when they're in pain, if they'll really say they won't breed them and then do... the truth is on that, is you just can't trust many people, there are very few people I know that I would trust who would do the right thing, let it be not breeding a nice chin or taking care of the chin when it's sick they way it should be. It's a very tough decision to have to think about, and as a breeder you have to ask what is best for the animal, what is economical, and what it best for the breed, to me that's part of being a rancher.

Nan, I've been told by ranchers with more knowledge than me that if one pops up you change the parents to different partners and watch the offspring, others would cull them out, in the end it's a personal decision, you're the one who has to be okay with what you do. Good luck.

 

[Linda]

Why do it?

Why let them live?

Because I suspect many if not most of those kits will live a normal life as will most of the adults from that line. And don't know if you also put down all adults from that line, but those kits have no greater chance of developing the problem than their older siblings do. If breeders are discontinuing lines with problems, I suspect you'll find a fairly low incidence of malo in the kits. And knowing these kits are at risk for malo, they can be watched more closely and problems caught earlier. And if my experience transfers at all, over time if breeders truly eliminate such lines, you will find less severe cases or cases that occur later in life over time.

I think it really comes down to a different breeding philosophy. As a breeder, I expect that half or so of my cages will be inhabited by animals not currently in breeding. To me it's just part of breeding. Some of those will be singles who can't live with others (and from what I'm reading, hamsters are at least as bad as chins when it comes to pairing and re-pairing). Some will be retired breeders. Some will be rescues. And some will be animals with problems or from lines with problems. I don't actively try to place singles, rescues, retired breeders, or those with problems either in the line or themselves with problems. To me keeping those animals it's just part of being a breeder.

I've also found over time that problems seem to lessen. If you actively work to discontinue lines with problems (and we have plenty of problems and a range of problems in the four species of hamsters I keep), your herd will over time have increasingly fewer problems. And I'm in the poor situation of being the only person I know of currently with a couple of mutations -- literally the only one in the world with one mutation. Diabetes did show up in that line multiple years back, but I have actively worked, while retaining all pups born, to see if I can rid the line of the problem and save the mutation. The jury is still out on that one. With other lines and their problems, I just discontinue the line. And we have far, far fewer quality breeders to swap animals with and thus generally more inbreeding since the quality of pet store animals (commercially bred animals) is so poor. It's so bad that for one species, I have had a closed colony for quite a few years now. So hamsters are not easy and are actually far harder than chins in many respects.

So I think we just view breeding differently.

I would retain those animals (or place them if I knew appropriate homes) and euthanize if and when a problem came up. I have seen a lot of success in improving the overall health in different species of hamsters over the years, and perhaps health is the number one thing that we should strive to improve in animals (just my opinion). And I suspect chin ranchers treat their own animals instead of making lots of trips to the vet much like I treat mine. I take care of all of the routine things, and when I have a major problem affecting my colony as I did a number of years ago, my vet comes directly to my house and works with me to solve it. (And in that case it was bad food from a reputable company -- a company many on this list use.)

Linda

 

[RDZCRanch]

I don't think it's a difference in philosophy. It's very hard to have a chin with malo for it's entire life or close to it's entire life. You can see from the forum members on here that when a chin is taken into a truly loving pet home...it is NOT easy for them to lose their animals. I know in order to have people recommend my animals to friends/family/coworkers/etc. I will not send home a potentially problematic chinchilla with them. When people enter into buying a chinchilla from me, they fully know the commitment of taking on a chinchilla for 15 to 20 years. Some kits from malo parents won't develop malo for 2 or 3 years...2 or 3 years for a pet owner to become attached and no matter how prepared...if they have not dealt with malo before, it's painful.

I had my first chinchilla for 8 years...she had to be put down this year because of malo. I had 8 years to bond with that chin. She was always the first to be introduced to new people and she was almost always out of her cage with me. Putting her down was one of the hardest things I did but she was in an insane amount of pain. I would not wish that on anyone. Once you go through it personally with a chin you've bonded to very strongly, it makes it ten times harder to make a decision to potentially give that to another person.

Also...half of my cages are already occupied with non-breeding animals. Usually over half of my cages are occupied by animals not in breeding. These animals, however, are being grown for show, grown for breeding, or just waiting for a mate. With my spare cages already accounting for so many animals...it's not plausible to use that space for malo chins or even possible malo chins. If they're female...I'd keep them just to prevent them from being bred in the future...males get neutered and rehomed, but not everyone has these options.

 

[alpayton]

These are the x-rays...posted for Snickers.

Mr. Grump

Augusta:

 

[alpayton]

CC:

Magyc:

 

[alpayton]

Mystyc:

 

[Snickers]

Thanks for posting:
Grumpy is the father, CC is the mom, Mystyc and Magyc are from the same litter, and Augusta is from Grumpy and CC's 2nd litter. Magyc is the one with the bad teeth.

 

[VolunteerChin22]

I first noticed the front teeth looking a bit different but wow big difference in the roots on the back teeth - they seem much longer. I am sorry to hear about this, I know you must have had high hopes for this chin.

 

[ChilliPepper]

Linda,
Let me tell you, Chilli is my first chinchilla. I love that little guy. I am fighting for his life right now, but the fight may be over next week, or the week after. I have spent roughly $600 on his teeth to date since the beginning of August. I asked the vet if she would put him to sleep and she said not yet. He has a will to play still and he looks happy. And yet, my heart is breaking because I know I cannot afford another treatment, I just can't. I have the money, but I have to be practical with the fact that I need that money to go to Oregon to see my dad who has cancer.
It will likely shock you when I tell you that my precious boy is barely 5. Like Riven said, it is possible he was in pain for a while before I realized something was very wrong.
I would like to wring the neck of the person who bred my boy and gave him a death sentence. They should have to live with dental pain every day.

 

[Linda]

Linda,
Let me tell you, Chilli is my first chinchilla. I love that little guy. I am fighting for his life right now, but the fight may be over next week, or the week after. I have spent roughly $600 on his teeth to date since the beginning of August. I asked the vet if she would put him to sleep and she said not yet. He has a will to play still and he looks happy. And yet, my heart is breaking because I know I cannot afford another treatment, I just can't. I have the money, but I have to be practical with the fact that I need that money to go to Oregon to see my dad who has cancer.
It will likely shock you when I tell you that my precious boy is barely 5. Like Riven said, it is possible he was in pain for a while before I realized something was very wrong.
I would like to wring the neck of the person who bred my boy and gave him a death sentence. They should have to live with dental pain every day.

We're in violent agreement. I too would wring the neck of the person who bred him *IF* they had any sign of malo in either parent's line when the parents were bred to produce the kit I got.

Riven states that "I've been told by ranchers with more knowledge than me that if one pops up you change the parents to different partners and watch the offspring." If I were sold a pup from a litter bred by one of those parents put with a different adult, I would expect it to be disclosed that the parent had already had a pup with malo. Then I could make an informed decision whether or not I wanted a kit from that litter.

My question is still with the kits who were born before malo showed up and before the breeder had any reason to believe kits from that litter will suffer from malo. For that matter, what should be done with adults from that line who don't currently show malo. Should they all be put down too on the chance they'll develop it?

This is all a learning experience. I expect people to ask me questions about the lines they're buying from when purchasing from me. Some do (mostly other show breeders), but many don't. I will be asking about malo in the lines before purchasing any breeding chins.

Linda

 

[Megan]

My question is still with the kits who were born before malo showed up and before the breeder had any reason to believe kits from that litter will suffer from malo. For that matter, what should be done with adults from that line who don't currently show malo. Should they all be put down too on the chance they'll develop it?

If it were me, I would contact the people with the kits from the line in question. Reccomend that they do not breed them, and remove any from breeding. It would be up to them to either keep them as pets, or put them down. I wouldn't just put them down right away as they----could--- be healthy. Unfortantely the cold hard truth is that once an animal leaves our place, we have NO control over what happens to that animal. Rescue, Breeder, Pet, Fur chewer, or an animal with teethproblem. As soon as it steps out that door, we've got no control over what the owner does with it.

 

[Riven]

Yes, some ranchers say that, don't shoot the messenger. I've pulled chins because of malo, they were very expensive top quality chins 1st and better at Nationals chins, I notified the breeder, pulled the chins.

Here I go, prepare to crucify me, but I am not alone when I say, I'd rather put down 4 chins than grow them, care for them, and spend money on xrays every 6 months to a year to see if they might be developing malo. and so on, that is money I could be spending on healthy animals. If they shouldn't be bred, then why even put it out there, people will do as they want. Why spay them when they might die from the procedure, and spend $150 + just to spay the chin, you'll never get that out of a possible malo chin, and WHY would anyone want to do it... why would they want to even GIVE someone a chin knowing it has over a 50% chance of dying before 5 years with a broken hearted family who's probably spent THOUSANDS, yes THOUSANDS to care for until it's in so much pain they put it to sleep, or worry that they won't be cared for adn suffer. I don't have that many friends that each of them wants 10 possible malo chins if I happen to get malo in a whole string of lines. I love my pet chins, but not one of them is worth $1000 in vet bills to me. Say I don't care, say I'm cold hearted whatever, but I worked in a vet for a year and I know that NO procedure is guaranteed. I lost a dog of my own in a spay, a very common procedure. I knew it was not guaranteed, it's a chance I took, in the end I still had a bill for it, and I didn't have my dog anymore.

Linda you say you "just want to learn" but then you argue with what people say. What I do, is not what you do, and none of it might be what other people do. Many people, people with tons of knowledge and years and years of experience don't come to the forums because they don't want to put up with people telling them they are wrong, or what they do is wrong, or it's bad that they pelt, or that they put down a whole line of malo chins " on the chance they'll develop it to". All of this knowledge is not gained because some people can't accept that their way is not the only way, nor is it always the right way.

Another thread discussed what a rancher is, a rancher is this. They don't spend a lot to keep one chin alive when they can't use it, that is the business aspect of it. Sometimes it's not about one chin... sometimes it's about all the chins, the betterment of the breed. I know that I will have chins born here with issues, and how I chose to deal with them is my choice, be it pet them out or pelt them out. My goal is to produce quality, healthy chins, not house lots of possible malo chins, nor risk my reputation by selling a chin I know has a high possibility of malo, nor send out heart break to people who get a chin wanting a happy, healthy pet. People would rather pay more upfront for a chin from healthy lines, and less for one from bad lines, the ones who don't, are the ones who generally won't take them to the vet. People who've never dealt with it do not understand at all the heartbreak involved with a pet with malo. My daughter had a chin with malo... ask her.

The the OP, the mom's teeth look good to me, Magyc obviously has malo issues, there is more than one kind of malo per se, there is upper malo and root malo. As you can see from the top of her xray the teeth are out of line on the left side, that paired with the extreme root elongation is not a good deal.
Augusta's teeth are also showing some root elongation as you can see in the and they are crooked.
Mr. Grumps are extremely mal-aligned as you can see in the top view.
Mystic's look pretty good to me as well.

Some of the pictures are smallish, but that is what I see when I look at them. I am not a vet, this is just my thoughts and what I would do using my experience in such matters. I would closely watch Augusta, Magyc, and Mr. Grump and pull them from breeding.

 

[Snickers]

No one is in breeding, Grumpy, Augusta, & CC are all in the same cage. Grumpy was neutered maybe last year after Augusta was born. The neutering had nothing to do with malo. If malo is on Grumpy's lines he has 3 other daughters from 2 other parents. These daughters were born in 2006. The parents and daughters are still here no signs of malo so far. Would it be wise to take these 3 girls in for x-rays? The only ones I only wanted to breed CC and Augusta since they are in the 900 grs and I have a male that is 760 grs. CC won color class 1 year maybe 2007 and she took a 1st this past March at a claiming show. Augusta placed 1st. This line has given me 2nd place or better.

 

[ticklechin]

JMO, unless you have personally dealt with the care and euthanizing of a malo chin after years of taking care of it and coming to the realization that that care was all for not, then one should not argue the case of keeping them alive. Malo is a death sentance, its just a matter of how long one wants to try to keep them alive and frankly its not worth it you can't make it better, the chin cannot tell you how much pain they are in, they should be put down.

 

[Megan]

Really, doesn't matter how well the line is placing. If Nicole is right, and the other xrays are showing potentional problems, I would cull all animals from a breeding set up.

 

[tunes]

I won't flame you for your post Nicole. I agree with what you said, even if that's not exactly the way I might handle it. Now, let's hope nobody flames me for mine.

I think summarily deciding that all chins who "might" carry malo should be killed is ridiculous. I bought a chin from a well known breeder and she developed malo (she was only 13 months old when I had her euthanized), unfortunately, not until after she had kits. There were only two, thankfully, and I kept them for 3 years and they had not one sign of malo develop. They were then adopted out into a pet home where they have lived for 2 years, again, no signs of malo. I absolutely trust who they are with, 100%. They wouldn't have gone there otherwise. I wouldn't have minded keeping them here and letting them live out their lives, but they are much better off in a pet only home with lots of space and a huge cage.

Why should I kill them on the off chance that they "might" someday down the line develop malo? As far as I know (with about as much certainty as anyone else would have in this situation) the father is clear. In order for the offspring to have even a chance at malo, the father would also have had to have been at least a carrier. So the odds were very high that these girls could live a long, happy, healthy life in a pet home, malo free.

Maybe it's a difference in philosophy. Of course I want to breed healthy animals, and I feel I do. But that doesn't mean that the ones who aren't perfect, who might have issues, need to be destroyed out of hand just because it's not convenient for me to give them cage space. Big deal. Buy another cage. <shrugs> I have some chins that will stay here until they die, whenever that is, so it's not big deal to me to have an extra cage ready.

I will agree with you though on this particular point absolutely. I will not spend thousands of dollars torturing a chin with treatments to try and prolong their lives. I know of someone who used to do that. It sickened me. Slings, experimenting, trimmings, and hand feedings, blah, blah. Just because you have the money to spend on the animal doesn't make it right. I cannot wrap my mind around why anyone would do that. Malo is incurable. I will not pour money after money into attempting to keep an animal alive who has no chance at a healthy, pain free life. I just wouldn't do it, even if I did have the money.

ETA: I just wanted to add - I am not a rancher. I do not consider myself a rancher, nor will I ever. This ties in to the post Nicole mentioned. I will never pelt, therefore, I don't consider myself a "real" rancher. I don't even breed in runs, utilizing 1 male to multiple females, so when malo showed up here, it wasn't on the scale that it might have with a rancher. My decision to let my girls grow out was a lot different than dealing with the possibility of 50 or 60 chins.

 

[Riven]

I'm not saying that you should or shouldn't euthanize actually, what I'm saying is that it's a personal choice. There is a difference between say 2 or even 5 animals and say 20 that you're holding and feeding and xraying for years before thinking about rehoming.

What I've learned from selling chins, is that even people who you think you can trust, will turn on you, lie to you, and badmouth you to get what they want. There are very few people I would truly trust to take a chin who might have malo and care for it, and make sure it doesn't suffer. I've had malo chins here, one in particular was special to me, she had malo so bad her teeth broke the bottom of her jaw before she showed any signs... how long was she suffering before I knew?

 

[Godins Chinchillas]

Wow-I really started something here. Everybody has their own opinion on how to raise their animals. I would hope everyone would respect each other in that. I respect Peggy's and Riven's way of thinking. What's right for one is not always right for the other.

I'm sorry Snickers that you are having to deal with this aweful issue. And I apologize for where this thread has gone. I know you will make the right decision for your situation. It's hard. I feel for you.

 

[RDZCRanch]

What I've learned from selling chins, is that even people who you think you can trust, will turn on you, lie to you, and badmouth you to get what they want. There are very few people I would truly trust to take a chin who might have malo and care for it, and make sure it doesn't suffer. I've had malo chins here, one in particular was special to me, she had malo so bad her teeth broke the bottom of her jaw before she showed any signs... how long was she suffering before I knew?

Exactly...I think people that don't understand the idea of stopping malo in it's tracks even if it means sacrificing the lives of a line of chins is humane to those of us that have dealt with malo personally. It's difficult...especially when you find it in a chin that's made its way deep into your heart.


Nicole...your posts have been very nice to read in this thread. They are very informative and reasonable. I agree that on closer inspection, Mr. Grump and Augusta seem to have longer roots but I think the appearance of misalignment is really just the positioning of the chins. Mystic also appears to have slightly longer roots. CC seems to be the only one with normal teeth and normal alignment.