GSC with malo

[Snickers]

I have a BV female that was bred here on 09/23/07 or /06 she has a good pedigree top ranchers. She was from a litter of 2. She has another full sister that was born 08/23/08. My question is I want to breed her mother and the full sister that was born in 2008. Is this wise or not. None of the siblings or parents show any signs of malo.

I came home Saturday night and she was all wet. I made an appointment with a vet for Sunday (not my original vet). Her top right incisor was curled in. She also said that the right bottom molar had a point. I told this vet I'll wait until and she can see my vet. So she filed the incisors. I just got back from my vet this morning and she had a small point on her right bottom molar. He said not to breed her and I knew that. No x-rays were done but was told to check her mouth every 2 weeks.

 

[Claire D]

Without wishing to be controversial ................

1. Incisor problems can be caused by trauma - if she has bumped her mouth or twisted her tooth then it may well grow at a slight angle and curl

2. If an incisor is causing a problem then a chin may well eat slightly "off" (i.e. malocclusion in the sense of the grinding surfaces of the teeth not aligning properly) which can cause small spurs. For example this is similar to us eating on one side of our mouths because we have a mouth ulcer or tooth ache.

3. Without Xrays it is impossible to tell whether the incisor problem is caused by skeletal problems, an abscess or something else. It is also impossible to tell whether there is underlying root elongation or other problems.

4. Personally I would get her Xrayed rather than waiting for a 2 weekly check and then decide from there - I would also be tempted to Xray the mother and sibling - & yes, I know it is expensive because I have done just that in the past.
Xrays will not show you if the mother or sibling are carriers of malocclusion though - so you'd still have to make a judgement call.


Some people would say breed them and see what happens, some would say Xray them and if there are signs of mal then pull them from breeding, some would say Xray and pull them regardless because they could be carriers, some would say pull them completely regardless ...........................

You could get lots of answers - what would you feel comfortable with?

 

[RDZCRanch]

I would do as Claire suggested Nan. It's costly and I adore Greek but sometimes teeth problems can occur from some kind of injury. I know your chins and I know your lines...I honestly would be very very surprised if malo popped up genetically in them.

Did you have the X-rays that were taken at the E-vet show any other, deeper signs of malo other than that one point and the front tooth being slightly curled? I think you should have X-rays done again...just to see if anything could be off to positively identify malo or maybe this girl just did something stupid and made her incisors misalign?

 

[mishellyshel]

thank you for sharing this. i did not know that teeth problems could stem from an injury. i was always under the impression that it was either genetic or food related.

 

[jags]

I feel for you as it is a very tough thing to deal with. I have been there and dealt with it myself and ended up eliminating a whole line of top show producers because of it.While it could be from an injury it could also be genetic as it pops up in all major sized herds from time to time no matter who bred them or who's lines they are.

 

[Godins Chinchillas]

Ditto what Jags said. Been there and dealt with that. Every breeder and rancher will deal with this sometime in their career. And if they say they haven't-they are lying. Nobody will think bad of you. ****, I bought a color class champ standard male from a rancher (very well respected) in Sept. Within that week he started with runny eyes and has teeth issues. It happens. What will I do with him-he's going back to the rancher in the spring. I'm not in the least upset about it. It just happens. Glad it happened when it did before I put him with girls.

Would I breed a known malo carrier. Absolutely not. Would I do what Jags did and wipe out the line? Yeah. I would have a hard time placing a kit knowing in the very least it was a mallo carrier. I wouldn't want to give a broken heart to a pet owner.

Alot of ranchers that I have talked to in regards to mallo have all said-if they got wet eyes or are drooling-get rid of them. They are not going to spend hundreds to have all their lines xrayed.

Do what you feel is right. If it would put your mind at rest, xray them, then make the decision. If it was my call-they would be done from breeding regardless.
Jessica

 

[Linda]

Would I breed a known malo carrier. Absolutely not. Would I do what Jags did and wipe out the line? Yeah. I would have a hard time placing a kit knowing in the very least it was a mallo carrier.

Is it known how malo is inherited?

Referring to a kit as a "malo carrier" implies this is a recessive. If the inheritance is understood, it's much easier to get rid of such a problem.

Linda

 

[Claire D]

thank you for sharing this. i did not know that teeth problems could stem from an injury. i was always under the impression that it was either genetic or food related.

No not always but it very much depends - I have known chins fall and smack their faces or jaws and end up with problems or snap their incisors off etc.



As Jessica says, anyone who says they have not had tooth problems crop up in their breeding herd is either a liar or has only had chins for a very short period of time - it will hit somewhere along the way, sadly.


I have to say I am also with Jags - I have pulled a line regardless - it's too great a risk for me to consider taking.
I've had Xrays taken of siblings when a chin was PTS due to root elongation - I wanted to know what the state of the sibling's roots were (incidentally they were perfect on Xray) but the line was already pulled so it was more for my benefit than for any breeding related issue.

The bottom line is people have to be happy with the decisions they make & be able to live with themselves afterwards - I know some in the UK who continue to play Russian Roulette when it comes to tooth problems, believing that "possible" carriers are ok to breed with, but there's no way I could do that.

Is it known how malo is inherited?

Referring to a kit as a "malo carrier" implies this is a recessive. If the inheritance is understood, it's much easier to get rid of such a problem

Oooh, can open, worms everywhere ............... this subject is debated long and hard with chinchilla owners/breeders/ranchers/rescues.
If you pop "malocclusion" into the search box you will find some interesting threads.

 

[Snickers]

I have an appt this afternoon if UPS gets here before I have to go. All 5 chins will be going to get x-rays done, mom, dad, & the 3 siblings.

I also didn't know that an injury can cause teeth problems. I'm not a big breeder and I only had 1 born this year. I usually keep the babies any ways. If malo does exist no breeding on this line. I also guess I need to contact the people I purchased the parents from.

 

[Godins Chinchillas]

I've always been told it was a recessive gene if genetic. For instance, I have had 2 chins with mallo this year. Both were bought from breeders/ranchers. One male is what I posted above that came from a rancher. The other was a male I bought at 11 mos of age. I put him in breeding with three females. By the time he was 1 1/2 yrs old he started with one wet eye-ok-probably just an eye infection. Treated for 3 weeks no better. Then the other eye started running. So I took him in for xrays, sure enough his roots were growing into his eye sockets. I euthanized him right away and necropsied his skull for a final verification in my head and the xrays were true to there findings. I was very disappointed. I was even more disappointed when he bred two of his girls before he showed signs. Both girls just delivered. A set of triplets and 1 kit. Now I know dad has mallo but I do not know if mom does. They are not showing signs and they do not have a bumpy jaw. So I called all these kits in the very least carriers. What do I do with the kits? I've contemplated euthanizing and am still contemplating it-however-I am also considering trying to find the perfect home for them where they won't be bred and the owners are fully aware of what could happen.

Having mallo chins does not make you a bad breeder unless you are breeding them. I would hope people would do the responsible thing and not breed them. I do not consider the people I bought these two chins from as horrible breeders/ranchers. When you are breeding chins you are going to get one, two, maybe a dozen. What you do with them makes you who you are. I told both people about mine. I know the breeder pulled hers and euthanized the pair. However, I do not know what the rancher is doing with their line.

 

[Linda]

I was even more disappointed when he bred two of his girls before he showed signs. Both girls just delivered. A set of triplets and 1 kit. Now I know dad has mallo but I do not know if mom does. They are not showing signs and they do not have a bumpy jaw. So I called all these kits in the very least carriers. What do I do with the kits? I've contemplated euthanizing and am still contemplating it-however-I am also considering trying to find the perfect home for them where they won't be bred and the owners are fully aware of what could happen.

I'm not trying to argue, judge or open a can of worms, but I'm not understanding why the kits would be euthanized. I'm trying to understand how malo is dealt with.

If both parents come from lines without malo (even if one developed it), I know it's hard to calculate the chance the kits also have it, but it wouldn't seem to be too high. Why would a breeder not wait to see if they develop it? If they do and it greatly impacts the quality of life, I can see euthanizing them, but if not, they could live out a normal life in a pet home.
Linda

 

[RDZCRanch]

I'm not trying to argue, judge or open a can of worms, but I'm not understanding why the kits would be euthanized. I'm trying to understand how malo is dealt with.

If both parents come from lines without malo (even if one developed it), I know it's hard to calculate the chance the kits also have it, but it wouldn't seem to be too high. Why would a breeder not wait to see if they develop it? If they do and it greatly impacts the quality of life, I can see euthanizing them, but if not, they could live out a normal life in a pet home.
Linda

Pulling the line just means that they would be pulling the line from breeding. I don't think anyone euthanizes an entire line for one chin having malo. <<just finished reading Godins post after I typed this! On the same note I have had a sire that developed malo after having a litter of triplets. One kit died at a young age and the other two showed no problems and I found them homes with the owners fully understanding what their sire had died from and the treatment options and the possibility of his kits also having the problem. They also went away neutered so that they wouldn't have the chance to reproduce and I was lucky to have only two boys to find homes for.

Not much is known about malo because only one person has used a herd of malo chins for research and while he did document well...he didn't use the same methods of research that we would use today so it's not entirely reliable. The more we learn about genetics the more malo is thought to be an accumulation of genes or a recessive trait. Hopefully someday someone will be able to do more research into it and figure out how it is passed from generation to generation.

 

[Diamond Dreams]

I think the problem is that you cannot control whether or not a pet home will breed those animals. Besides the fact that rehoming animals who may end up with genetic health problems can be damaging to the breeders reputation.

I'm not trying to argue, judge or open a can of worms, but I'm not understanding why the kits would be euthanized. I'm trying to understand how malo is dealt with.

If both parents come from lines without malo (even if one developed it), I know it's hard to calculate the chance the kits also have it, but it wouldn't seem to be too high. Why would a breeder not wait to see if they develop it? If they do and it greatly impacts the quality of life, I can see euthanizing them, but if not, they could live out a normal life in a pet home.
Linda

 

[Riven]

I'm not understanding why the kits would be euthanized.

As said about, you can't control what the people who get it do with them, but also why would you want to pass on the heartache and financial burden? It's easy for people to say oh I'll take it, it'll be okay, but in reality most people haven't been there and don't know what it's about.

As far as growing them out, it can be years before any signs are shown, you might end up holding onto lots of animals just to see for any case similar to this.

I would see what your vet says about the xrays and if you really would like to keep these in breeding then also xray the others to see if they have any signs especially of root enlongment. The problem with malo is there is no test to see if it's genetic or not, either way you're shooting in the dark, if you do decide that it's envirnomental or trauma I would definitely not line breed and go with a strong line with no signs of malo.

The problem I see with malo is... if we took every line that has ever had signs of malo in any of the animals anywhere... we would have no animals left to breed I would bet money on that.

 

[Linda]

As said about, you can't control what the people who get it do with them, but also why would you want to pass on the heartache and financial burden? It's easy for people to say oh I'll take it, it'll be okay, but in reality most people haven't been there and don't know what it's about.

As far as growing them out, it can be years before any signs are shown, you might end up holding onto lots of animals just to see for any case similar to this.

I can understand the heartache associated with it (which is why you have to place them carefully), but I don't really understand the financial burden. If a parent had it and you know that kit *may* be pre-disposed to get it, I wouldn't think a lot of testing would be done if the kit gets malo. And I don't think the financial burden is really more regardless of whether it's a kit or adult that is euthanized.

And you would start gaining at least some anecdotal evidence of whether or not the malo in the line was genetic or not if the breeder either keeps the kits or places them in a home that will keep them updated. I would think over time the industry could get a better grasp of what percentage of kits from a parent who had malo actually developed it themselves as well as probably a feel for the age at which they develop it. The percentage of kits may be very small. To just euthanize any kits from the line assumes all will get it.

I'm not saying this with no similar experience. We have a disease which appears to have some simiilarities in dwarf hamsters -- diabetes in the Campbells species. Every breeder gets diabetics, and every breeder has at some point sold pups who developed it later. The good breeders disclose and pull lines.

When I have a diabetic in one of my lines, the colony is split into a male and female colony, and the pups are retained in their same sex colony. I have at times placed some with full disclosure to the new owner, but I don't euthanize any in the colony until quality of life is seriously impacted. Yes, I retain a bunch of animals I can't breed, and yes the hamster lifespan is less, but they still take up cage space that would have been allocated to breeding animals. I have learned a lot from retaining these animals and have been doing it for years and years. The pups haven't sufferred because I retained them, and most live a normal life.

That's why I'm trying to better understand the philosophy here which seems to assume they'll all develop it and thus all should be euthanized before they have that chance. Has anyone retained them and provided the first anecdotal evidence to how many kits born to such parents develop it themselves?

Linda

 

[ticklechin]

I don't think there will be many people who would take a potential malo chin as a pet, why would a pet owner want to get attached to a pet with a potential fatal disease just to have to put it down in the end. There are enough choices for pet owners to get healthy chins and not in my view a large market for potential malo chins.

 

[Riven]

The financial burden comes when they need to go in every two weeks to get their teeth filed, sedation, managing any pain, and xrays to see progression of root enlongement or if there is any.

Chins require more room, more food, and more cleaning ( more shavings, etc ) than a hamster, and often you can't colony cage them due to fighting. So perhaps 5 hamsters can live in a cage 2" x 2" very happily, chins would need at least 5x's that Chins can live over 20 years.... In 20 years my kids will be grown, and I'll probably have grandchildren.

Would it be helpful, possibly, people have kept records and tons of research has been supported, but for me and the size of room I have for animals, I would rather use that space to better the animals I have. Maybe that makes me heartless, but that is my goal, to produce quality animals. I will leave malo research in the hands of more experienced people.


You can't tell if chins are in pain, and often malo is not evident until it's way too late to do anything about it. Often by the time classic symptoms show roots have already growth through the jaw, which means they can live with pain for probably years without showing it. Why do it?

 

[Snickers]

I just got back from the vet and taking the 5 chins. Magyc that has the teeth problem or x-rays showed that her teeth are bad. The other 4 chins teeth are fine. I will try to post x-rays on all 5 of them they are on a disk. I might need help on doing this since I'm not computer literate.

Right now I'm so depressed since I wanted to breed her mom and sibling from 2008 and full sibling just different litter.

 

[Snickers]

No problems with the roots just teeth growing weird.

 

[Linda]

Right now I'm so depressed since I wanted to breed her mom and sibling from 2008 and full sibling just different litter.

Nan,

I'm so sorry to hear the news. My condolences. Having been through this with many lines myself, I know how devastating it can be initially.

Once you've had some time to grieve, I would recommend you contact the breeder(s) you got her parents from. They'll want to know so that can adjust their breeding accordingly.

Linda