Spoof
Kung Fu Chinny!
No, you talk to a modern rancher. Not a 30 year old article from back when pellet technologies were not very good and hay was cheaper.
Hay is now at the same cost as pellets, and more expensive in places that do not grow hay.
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No, you talk to a modern rancher. Not a 30 year old article from back when pellet technologies were not very good and hay was cheaper.
Hay is now at the same cost as pellets, and more expensive in places that do not grow hay.
C
Carol~Anne
Guest
Yes, I did notice the source of the article as been taken from: J. Lauridsen, M.D., MCBA News - August 1979 but the actual article was written in May 2009 so I'd think they still feel the information is valid.
LOL whatever.
It's not a debate if there's only one side "arguing". That is all I am saying - you seem to think that people are going to swing onto this thread and "debate" the issue from a "no-hay" point of view - you're waiting for the ranchers to miraculously appear and it's just not going to happen.
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Carol~Anne
Guest
Spoof is here and I am here so that's two people with opposing views means a debate is possible. It could also end up in a discussion as well you know, where others ask questions or comment on the subject. I'm not sure why you keep reading and posting to a topic that you obviously have no interest in.
And who's to say a rancher or two won't "miraculously appear"... you? Well maybe they will and maybe they won't but that would be very nice if they did but I'm not going to take your word for it that "it's just not going to happen".
mishellyshel
Chin Slave
thank you for posting that article. it was an interesting read.
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Carol~Anne
Guest
You're welcome. I enjoyed reading it as well. From now on I'm going to check out that site and read all the monthly web articles.
You have no idea what I do and do not have interest in and your assumption is incorrect. I keep reading and posting because the subject does interest me and the semantics which keep surfacing certainly interest me.
I am glad you are not going to take my word for it - I certainly wouldn't
Time will tell but if the responses which Spoof has received are indicative of the way in which anyone with an opposing view is treated then I would not blame any rancher for not posting on this thread. Just agreeing that some ranchers do not feed hay to their chins set off a barrage of protest.
Back to topic - do I recall correctly that Kline fed a pellet only diet or that she at least discussed it in one of her articles? I don't have my books here at work but I am sure I saw something about it way back in the dim and distant past about not feeding hay ............ :hmm:
chinsNdobermans
Humble Acres Chinchillas
From what I've read it sounds like the Kline diet included pellets, cubes and a grain supplement that she considered to be nutrient rich.
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Chinniechantel
Guest
I know a lot of ranchers who used the Kline diet, T&A cubes, and supplement as well. And they had some of the healthiest, fattest, most beautiful chins I have ever seen.
Aha I've found it! :dance3:
In Alice Kline's "After 40 years........." folder there is a very interesting article on pages 33-38. It is titled "We made the no-hay diet work for us" and although it was originally penned in 1963 it is still an interesting read - it discusses the no hay diet and why Kline developed it. The only addendum Kline added in 1994 was that they no longer used corn in their feed formula - she does go on to say that they were then feeding the pellets, supplement, and alfalfa mini bales.
I thought this paragraph was fascinating ........ times change? :hmm:
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mishalaa
Irish Chinchilla
I feed loose hay when it's available (locally), cubes otherwise. I feed alfalfa, not timothy, and I only feed them a handful each twice a week. I do not and have not recommended straight alfalfa to pet owners.
I do not believe loose hay is necessary. I know too many ranchers with 20+ year old chins that do not feed it. I believe it can have benefits - enrichment mostly, but no - I do not believe they must have it to live or that it's the only way to wear down their teeth.
As for the "forum vet" - she has breeding practices which I do not agree with. When it comes to internal medicine and anatomy, I have no reason to doubt her and know that she is the foremost expert in chinchilla medicine today. But when it comes to husbandry, including preferred diet, I will take what she says as subjective.
I do not believe loose hay is necessary. I know too many ranchers with 20+ year old chins that do not feed it. I believe it can have benefits - enrichment mostly, but no - I do not believe they must have it to live or that it's the only way to wear down their teeth.
As for the "forum vet" - she has breeding practices which I do not agree with. When it comes to internal medicine and anatomy, I have no reason to doubt her and know that she is the foremost expert in chinchilla medicine today. But when it comes to husbandry, including preferred diet, I will take what she says as subjective.
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ticklechin
Well-known member
I think we are talking about hay regardless of the delivery-cube or loose, as important to the diet, the debate I believe is if ANY hay is given, meaning a pellet only diet.
From a well known award winning rancher website: Hay is the most important part of the diet.There is a rancher opinion.
http://www.shootschinchilla.com/general-animal-husbandry.htm
From a well known award winning rancher website: Hay is the most important part of the diet.There is a rancher opinion.
http://www.shootschinchilla.com/general-animal-husbandry.htm
Spoof
Kung Fu Chinny!
The Kline diet is quite good and really did work while it was being produced. I don't know if the benefactor is still doing it or not.
I've heard the old time ranchers discuss using grains only with a powder supplement. They quit in the 70's like the article mentions due to the cost of production, and commercial pellets took off. What's happened is the opposite of what the article predicted - the cost of grains stayed the same because more efficient ways to harvest, grow, and transport it were found.
Also, pellets have changed dramatically since then, they used to be a combination of 'hot' feeds - oats/barley/etc. Now they are 90%+ hay products with mostly corn and a little bit of the other stuff.
p.s. That article wasn't written, it was a reprinted excerpt from the original 1979 publication.
I've heard the old time ranchers discuss using grains only with a powder supplement. They quit in the 70's like the article mentions due to the cost of production, and commercial pellets took off. What's happened is the opposite of what the article predicted - the cost of grains stayed the same because more efficient ways to harvest, grow, and transport it were found.
Also, pellets have changed dramatically since then, they used to be a combination of 'hot' feeds - oats/barley/etc. Now they are 90%+ hay products with mostly corn and a little bit of the other stuff.
p.s. That article wasn't written, it was a reprinted excerpt from the original 1979 publication.
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mishalaa
Irish Chinchilla
I assumed we meant loose when referring to hay - because when someone meant cubes they qualified it with the word "cubes" and because pellets ARE hay bound with other ingredients. So yes, hay is essential. But is additional hay, loose or cubed? I'm not convinced.
Also, that article is not the opinion of Ralph or Barbara. It is the opinion of Dr. Koch and was written in 1979.
C
Carol~Anne
Guest
The article may have been written by Dr. Koch but I'd think if the Shoots have it on their website then they'd have to be in agreement with it? I know I wouldn't put anything on my website (if I had one) that I didn't approve of.
Carol-Anne - I think she was distinguishing between the fact that it was not Shoots who actually wrote the article. It kind of sounded like that's what tickelchin meant, so she was clarifying. The article was written by Dr. Koch, not the Shoots.
I have Dr. Koch's vet book here. It has some.......interesting things in it. Some of it is really interesting, other stuff leaves you scratching your head a bit.
I have Dr. Koch's vet book here. It has some.......interesting things in it. Some of it is really interesting, other stuff leaves you scratching your head a bit.
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MerrittChinchillas
Guest
As I've stated many times before, we haven't fed loose hay in years and have suffered no bad effects from it. I would guess we quit approximately 4 years ago. We feed alphalfa or timothy pellets every day. We could no longer get hay in our area that was good. Lack of loose hay hasn't caused malo in our herd. I would disagree with the statement that hay is the most important part of their diet. What we have seen over the years is that bad water causes more problems than anything else. Feeding no loose hay may not work for everyone, but it has worked for us. No, bad water doesn't cause malo, but it sure can cause a mutitude of other problems. Thought I had better make that clear. My views on malo are that it is almost always genetic, which has been argued about before.
mishalaa
Irish Chinchilla
They may approve of it, but do they follow that advice? I approve of free feeding timothy hay, but I don't do it. I have an article on chin care on my website, written by me in the last year that says to feed timothy or other grass hays, but I'm also fine with those who don't feed hay (provided their pellets aren't crap and the owners know what they're doing).
ticklechin
Well-known member
Here is his own words that I believe is narrated by him, since he talks about the past. He still refers to feeding hay.
http://www.shootschinchilla.com/nutrition.htm
http://www.shootschinchilla.com/nutrition.htm
I know there are several people on this forum who have actually visited the Shoots ranch. Perhaps they could enlighten us as to whether they actually do feed loose hay.
So far the articles you are copying say they "recommend" feeding it. It doesn't say that they feed it themselves. Mish was trying to point that out. I can see them maybe feeding hay cubes once in a while, but they have something like 3000 animals? I doubt it would be economical for them to feed loose hay.
A couple times a week, not every day. They also mostly mention cubes and say OR loose hay, which is the big deal in this thread right now. The fact that most pet owners think that you have to feed loose hay every single day in order for your chin to be healthy and avoid dental issues. Obviously, if you believe that this article is 100% followed by the Shoots, that isn't true.
So far the articles you are copying say they "recommend" feeding it. It doesn't say that they feed it themselves. Mish was trying to point that out. I can see them maybe feeding hay cubes once in a while, but they have something like 3000 animals? I doubt it would be economical for them to feed loose hay.
A couple times a week, not every day. They also mostly mention cubes and say OR loose hay, which is the big deal in this thread right now. The fact that most pet owners think that you have to feed loose hay every single day in order for your chin to be healthy and avoid dental issues. Obviously, if you believe that this article is 100% followed by the Shoots, that isn't true.
