Mt. Zion Chins
Barb
because it not just pet oriented - look at the by laws - ranchers are welcome
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ticklechin
Well-known member
I guess I need to read the rules again, thanks for pointing that out. I was under the assumption when it became CNH it was a more friendly place than CNQ. And more pet owner friendly.
Tickle,
First of all, read this:
1. We consider this place to be a forum for animal owners to gather and share ideas, ask questions and otherwise brag about their critters. Chins-n-Hedgies is a pelt-neutral forum. This means that we welcome all: fur ranchers, hobby breeders and pet owners alike. We expect that all members treat each other as friends, or at the very least to be respectful of each other.
Second, this forum is here for everyone to share the info they have about chinchillas and ask questions when they have them. If we only wanted one opinion, we'd just post what we wanted to, and not let people put in their two cents.
I'm probably as close as anyone here (that posts often) to a "rancher". Do I feed hay? Yes. I feed cubes that are a timmy/alfalfa mix. I also make sure that they have pine to chew on. Those that don't like the hay usually like the wood. My husband makes wooden houses for them and they have a good time chewing them up!
First of all, read this:
1. We consider this place to be a forum for animal owners to gather and share ideas, ask questions and otherwise brag about their critters. Chins-n-Hedgies is a pelt-neutral forum. This means that we welcome all: fur ranchers, hobby breeders and pet owners alike. We expect that all members treat each other as friends, or at the very least to be respectful of each other.
Second, this forum is here for everyone to share the info they have about chinchillas and ask questions when they have them. If we only wanted one opinion, we'd just post what we wanted to, and not let people put in their two cents.
I'm probably as close as anyone here (that posts often) to a "rancher". Do I feed hay? Yes. I feed cubes that are a timmy/alfalfa mix. I also make sure that they have pine to chew on. Those that don't like the hay usually like the wood. My husband makes wooden houses for them and they have a good time chewing them up!
ticklechin
Well-known member
Thank you Becky for pointing it out in a nice way, I understand now.
Essentia
Jax Chinchilla Rescue
Edit: Question already answered.
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Carol~Anne
Guest
I wouldn't stop feeding your own chins as well as your rescue chins hay Crysta b/c the jury is still out on whether hay is essential or optional.
Essentia
Jax Chinchilla Rescue
I'm not being snarky here, I promise. Where anywhere did I say I was going to stop feeding hay? Just because someone says something different than what I believe doesn't mean I would switch my beliefs like that. I was just very curious about what breeders, with much more experience than my own, did when it comes to hay.
Spoof
Kung Fu Chinny!
I put a question mark after it because I don't know why people claim chins have to have hay. I assume it is for the same reason you get them cookies and fun things to play with.
I have never propagated that information, nor have any of the large scale breeders/ranchers I've worked with. I asked them what they fed when they got started, how much and who made it. I hunted down the original makers of feeds and every old rancher still living in the PNW. Their answers were all the same, alfalfa pellets with a special mixture in the pellet.
There are no ranchers posting because there are few left to post. The few that do use the interweb don't want to get in pissing matches with people they've never met. Arguing about methods is much more fun over dinner at one of the local shows. In fact, if you really want to learn about it go to your next show and ask. Everyone does it a little differently and will give you good advice.
There is no jury in or out. The reality is that a certain nutrient value needs to be met for the animal to survive. The pellets meet those needs and the ones I've fed over the years have sufficient hardness to keep the teeth down. If they didn't I wouldn't have a 16 year old chin.
Jenn
ZooKeeper
I was just realizing today that I have two separate dishes with hay. One sits on the bottom level of Tink's cage. I have the hay in a wheel with a box underneath to catch hay that falls out. I also have a dish on the 3rd level of her cage, next to her hidey house. They hay on the bottom level never seems to get touched at all. The hay on the upper level seems to be eaten fairly quickly. So in Tink's case, location seems to matter. I had just recently added the second container on the 3rd level a few weeks ago, thinking maybe she would eat it while hanging out in her hidey house and this is indeed what has happened. Same hay, same bag, two different locations...one gets eaten, the other does not.
One of the things I really appreciate about CnH is the diversity of replies that are given to questions. Here in the UK we are fully pet oriented - there are no real "big" breeders/ranchers (not with the numbers of chins that you guys have anway) and we do not have any pelting (and I'm not here to get into a discussion about that, it's just a fact of living in the UK). I may not always agree with the practices of ranching in terms of husbandry but I do respect the people who post a different (more objective at times) viewpoint.
I think it is actually possible to hold opposing views/opinions/practices in tension and then choose which way you personally want to go without dismissing anyone's methods/views. What sometimes happens on the forums though is people get defensive and then the mud slinging starts.
For several reasons I think hay should be an integral part of a chinchilla's diet however I do appreciate that not everyone agrees with this and some people (who perhaps own loads of chins) cannot accommodate that in everyday practice.
From a purely environmental perspective hay provides enrichment just like any other toy does - chins can pull it out of hay racks, scatter is across the floor, and generally "muck about" with it while they are decided which is the best strand to chew (ah yes, the waste when they plough merrily through a handful of hay, tossing perfectly good looking bits aside until they get the 1/4 inch of that strand which they deem worth eating :duh: ).
Some of you may find this interesting - I am quoting from a post Debbie made on a thread on CHINformative (http://www.chinformative.com/index.php?showtopic=1940&hl=alfalfa) in which we breifly discussed different types of hay.
I do believe that hay helps in both the digestive process (hind gut fermenters requiring high fibre content of food to assist in the transit of food through the long intestinal tract) and also in the wearing of grinding surfaces of the teeth.
Chinchillas are naturally adapted to eating a bland, nutrient poor diet, high fibre diet and whilst I recognise that pellets do provide for the nutritional component (as far as we know anyway) that cannot compensate for the extra effort and fibre content of munching on hay/dried grass etc. Providing hay gives the gut more to act on and enhances the throughput of the comparatively nutrient rich content found in pellets. Long, stalky stems provide more "work" for the teeth than already crushed up hay in pellets can provide, no matter how hard the pellets are to begin with.
Fibrous material of whatever type (from apple twigs to alfalfa stalks, hay, and even straw) which is actively chewed in the back molars as opposed to just sheared by the incisors does have an impact on tooth wear - if you give a chin something soft and watch their jaw movements and length of time chewing (how many of you have given a chin a raisin, blinked, and then found the chin staring at you as if they had not had anything at all? :haha: ) and then give them something stalky and fibrous and observe - again the difference is clearly visible. It takes far longer and more effort for a chin to chew something fibrous than something soft.
The other thing I think it is worth bearing in mind is that most pet owners give their chins additional treats - this is something many hobby (I hate that term btw!) breeders and ranchers do not do - in many cases this simply adds additional richness, (sometimes) sugar, and minimal fibre to the diet of their chinchillas. I think this is another reason that good quality fibrous hay should be used in addition to pellets - to counteract the "treats".
I provide the inhabitants of Monty's Manor with a variety of hay and dried grasses (Oxbow Timothy hay, Oxbow Orchard grass, Readigrass) so that they do not become bored and to try to minimise waste.
Personally I will always recommend giving chinchillas plenty of good quality hay accompanied by good quality pellets and I will continue to advocate giving hay as a staple part (mainstay) of the diet - for the reasons mentioned above and more. I do know that not everyone here in the UK gives hay (and some of the bigger breeders here do not give it daily even if they do use hay) but that does not mean that either side is "right" or "wrong" - it just means they practice different husbandry methods.
*wanders off to waffle on somewhere else*
I think it is actually possible to hold opposing views/opinions/practices in tension and then choose which way you personally want to go without dismissing anyone's methods/views. What sometimes happens on the forums though is people get defensive and then the mud slinging starts.
For several reasons I think hay should be an integral part of a chinchilla's diet however I do appreciate that not everyone agrees with this and some people (who perhaps own loads of chins) cannot accommodate that in everyday practice.
From a purely environmental perspective hay provides enrichment just like any other toy does - chins can pull it out of hay racks, scatter is across the floor, and generally "muck about" with it while they are decided which is the best strand to chew (ah yes, the waste when they plough merrily through a handful of hay, tossing perfectly good looking bits aside until they get the 1/4 inch of that strand which they deem worth eating :duh: ).
Some of you may find this interesting - I am quoting from a post Debbie made on a thread on CHINformative (http://www.chinformative.com/index.php?showtopic=1940&hl=alfalfa) in which we breifly discussed different types of hay.
I do believe that hay helps in both the digestive process (hind gut fermenters requiring high fibre content of food to assist in the transit of food through the long intestinal tract) and also in the wearing of grinding surfaces of the teeth.
Chinchillas are naturally adapted to eating a bland, nutrient poor diet, high fibre diet and whilst I recognise that pellets do provide for the nutritional component (as far as we know anyway) that cannot compensate for the extra effort and fibre content of munching on hay/dried grass etc. Providing hay gives the gut more to act on and enhances the throughput of the comparatively nutrient rich content found in pellets. Long, stalky stems provide more "work" for the teeth than already crushed up hay in pellets can provide, no matter how hard the pellets are to begin with.
Fibrous material of whatever type (from apple twigs to alfalfa stalks, hay, and even straw) which is actively chewed in the back molars as opposed to just sheared by the incisors does have an impact on tooth wear - if you give a chin something soft and watch their jaw movements and length of time chewing (how many of you have given a chin a raisin, blinked, and then found the chin staring at you as if they had not had anything at all? :haha: ) and then give them something stalky and fibrous and observe - again the difference is clearly visible. It takes far longer and more effort for a chin to chew something fibrous than something soft.
The other thing I think it is worth bearing in mind is that most pet owners give their chins additional treats - this is something many hobby (I hate that term btw!
) breeders and ranchers do not do - in many cases this simply adds additional richness, (sometimes) sugar, and minimal fibre to the diet of their chinchillas. I think this is another reason that good quality fibrous hay should be used in addition to pellets - to counteract the "treats". I provide the inhabitants of Monty's Manor with a variety of hay and dried grasses (Oxbow Timothy hay, Oxbow Orchard grass, Readigrass) so that they do not become bored and to try to minimise waste.
Personally I will always recommend giving chinchillas plenty of good quality hay accompanied by good quality pellets and I will continue to advocate giving hay as a staple part (mainstay) of the diet - for the reasons mentioned above and more. I do know that not everyone here in the UK gives hay (and some of the bigger breeders here do not give it daily even if they do use hay) but that does not mean that either side is "right" or "wrong" - it just means they practice different husbandry methods.
*wanders off to waffle on somewhere else*
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Chinniechantel
Guest
First of all ranchers are why you have chinchillas now. Ranchers are why chinchillas are pets, why there are shows, and a market for chins, and they have more knowledge than almost all the vets in the world combined. To have a good rancher as a mentor is seriously priceless, and you cannot get that kind of advice and long-time experience from anyone, vet or not. I find it a huge shame that we scare off the ranchers and lose all the potentially life-saving, amazing and eye-opening experiences they have to offer. There were a few on CnQ and I would search out their posts just to read what they had to say, because every time they did, it was very smart and helpful. It makes me sad and angry that we don't have that anymore.
lauralynne
Chinnie Maid
I don't have any advice or comments about the discussion, other than to add that Carise has timothy cubes on forchinatechins.com for $.60/lb and that is where I've gotten mine from. http://www.geocities.com/forchinatechins/chincessories.htm
ticklechin
Well-known member
Chinchantel:
It was explained to me by a admin in a nice way, I really don't need to have it explained by a member. I got it alright????
It was explained to me by a admin in a nice way, I really don't need to have it explained by a member. I got it alright????
Tickelchin - Chantel is free to elaborate on the point Becky made. Becky addressed the "technical" side of it (forum rules), Chantel addressed the hobbyists/pet side of it (learning and growth from a personal aspect). She isn't trying to drill anything into you, simply elaborate on the why of having ranchers post.
Seriously, if this thread bothers you this much, there are other threads on this forum you can read. Pick one.
Seriously, if this thread bothers you this much, there are other threads on this forum you can read. Pick one.
mishellyshel
Chin Slave
Okay...........stupid question.
What exactly is the difference between a Rancher and Breeder?
What exactly is the difference between a Rancher and Breeder?
I mentioned in another thread that Gary Neubauer broke it down, basically, into three categories of breeders:
Ranchers: Those with chins who pretty much did everything -- Breeding, pelting, selling for pet, selling to hobbyists, selling to wholesale, showing, etc. Different people think of different numbers when they consider a rancher. It doesn't always have to be someone with 2000 chins.
Hobbyists: Those with chins who breed for pet, show, etc. who are trying to further the breed of chinchilla itself, trying to better the species through educated pairings of their animals, attending shows, and continuing their learning. Always striving to improve where they can.
Backyard breeders: Everybody else. Those people who think nothing of throwing two rescues together, who deliberately breed substandard animals because they simply don't care WHAT they produce. As long as it's a furry baby. Basically someone who breeds anything to make a buck, with no thought to the consequences of their actions, i.e., producing crap animals (speaking genetically, not lovability)).
Ranchers: Those with chins who pretty much did everything -- Breeding, pelting, selling for pet, selling to hobbyists, selling to wholesale, showing, etc. Different people think of different numbers when they consider a rancher. It doesn't always have to be someone with 2000 chins.
Hobbyists: Those with chins who breed for pet, show, etc. who are trying to further the breed of chinchilla itself, trying to better the species through educated pairings of their animals, attending shows, and continuing their learning. Always striving to improve where they can.
Backyard breeders: Everybody else. Those people who think nothing of throwing two rescues together, who deliberately breed substandard animals because they simply don't care WHAT they produce. As long as it's a furry baby. Basically someone who breeds anything to make a buck, with no thought to the consequences of their actions, i.e., producing crap animals (speaking genetically, not lovability
)).
C
Chinniechantel
Guest
This is a public forum for a reason. I have just as much right as an admin to answer your post. You asked a rhetorical questions and don't want answers and opinions? I don't get it. I was not even being rude, just annoyed that this forum cannot be nice and accept everyone: rancher, hobbyiest or breeder.
A
Azure Chinchillas
Guest
I mentioned hay-only days here ....
http://www.chins-n-hedgies.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3167
This is a good way (IMO) of getting reluctant chins to eat more hay.
Unless compromised in some way - a chinchilla should eat a diet high in fibre (most extruded foods do not provide enough fibre).
My website mentions the importance of hay in a chins diet ..
http://www.azure-chinchillas.co.uk/pages/hay.php
Here is an extract:
I think some chins can "go off" hay through boredom. I have found that by rotating different types of hay (all premium grade and well-seasoned) seems to keep them keen!
Debbie.
http://www.chins-n-hedgies.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3167
This is a good way (IMO) of getting reluctant chins to eat more hay.
Unless compromised in some way - a chinchilla should eat a diet high in fibre (most extruded foods do not provide enough fibre).
My website mentions the importance of hay in a chins diet ..
http://www.azure-chinchillas.co.uk/pages/hay.php
Here is an extract:
I think some chins can "go off" hay through boredom. I have found that by rotating different types of hay (all premium grade and well-seasoned) seems to keep them keen!
Debbie.
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Carol~Anne
Guest
I know I was speaking to you directly Crysta but I was really speaking generally to all those who were presently feeding hay to their chins. I was just quite surprised to log in and find this 'hay is optional b/c some random rancher said so' thread after having been drilled for two full years that hay is absolutely necessary for the health of chinchillas.
Turns out there was really only one person here who said that and really only one other person who agreed with her but the majority of others who also have a great deal of knowledge and experience seem to agree that hay is very important to chins' diet and I am very happy to read those comments.
I was concerned that since this topic was posted in the section for new chinchilla owners who come here for good advice (god knows the pet shops for the most part do not offer good advice at all) that they would think it okay to ditch the hay on account of the opinion of two people and some anonymous rancher.
If this topic had been started in the debate section I wouldn't have been so concerned but it wasn't and I did not want new chinchilla owners to be misled by bad advice or false information. JMO.
InkedupTara
Do the chinny shuffle!
I will add my 2 cents here, when Gabby started to neglect her hay even more then usual and was dueted with weigh loss, it was a teeth issue. Hay does have added benefits, it helps with digestion and teeth issues, so why would you only feed it once a week?
This is the first I am hearing of this. I would think they should have it free fed just to be on the safe side. If not just so they have something other then just pellets to eat. How boring to have just pellets and no hay.
This is the first I am hearing of this. I would think they should have it free fed just to be on the safe side. If not just so they have something other then just pellets to eat. How boring to have just pellets and no hay.
