Breeding and Guaranteed Chinnie Health

You have cleared up your point of view and I have mine. There has not been enough research done and may never be. The point is, is it worth the risk to breed an animal that has mallocluded? No it is not and I can see we pretty much all agree on that. Until someone comes along who is willing or capable of doing a long term research project on this it will be undecided. We prefer to err on the side of caution and pull the animal from breeding.:thumbsup:

When some argue so strongly that it isn't genetic it makes me wonder how many just might breed ones with malo because it is suggested it is just invironmental, which it is not.

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I wanted to touch on this, I agree personally. And although maybe no one in this thread said "it's okay to breed a chin with malo" it happens, people do it, and attribute it to being environmental. Do you think that anyone who does is going to come up here with 121 posts discredited them for doing it and say hey, I do it. They KNOW everyone will jump all over them.

Any kind of ill chin, be it malo, or ANYTHING should not be bred, not only for the health of their offspring, but for their own ( the chins) health as well.

That's an assumption that you are making. You know what they say about assuming things? It makes an a** out of you and me.

Huh? What's the assumption? I have to say there seems to be a lot of mistrust on this forum that is, IMO, misplaced. I believe there are people out there who are breeding chinchillas with malocclusion, and many other illnesses. However, those people are not interested in educating themselves about chinchillas, nor are they concerned with the health and welfare of their animals, or in the ethics of breeding and animal husbandry. So, it stands to reason that those same people are not likely to be found on a forum for addressing just those specific issues. I believe that most, if not all of the people on this forum are here because they love their animals, and want to do right by them. Some people here seem to dismiss that notion and assume the worst. I agree that making assumptions is a foolish and counter productive thing to do. Perhaps you could all tone it down a bit, and give your fellow forum members the benefit of the doubt before you castigate them for being irresponsible, or bad breeders. You might find you learn more when you listen more, speak less, and speak kindly when you do.

Unfortunately it is not a assumption that people atribute a chin with mall. to the environment and not taking the effected line out of breeding. Many on here who have been around a while can testify that such has happened in the not to distant past.
Poor breeding choices as far as mating ,combined with the position that the Mall. that occured with in the herd was environmental.From someone who was considered by most to be a "reputable breeder " at the time
Directly led to a very large number of chin soming down with mall. and many people going through much heartache and tears over it.
It is not a assumption it is a fact. And that is why some are taking the position they are. Because they are trying to prevent another castrophy as happened in the resent past.

You are making an assumption that people are breeding malocclusion on this board at this moment simply because we do not agree that malocclusion is purely genetic. We don't breed malocclusion, we don't condone it. You won't find anyone on this board with knowledge who will tell a newbie to breed a maloccluded chin just because it maloccluded at an older age.

I don't believe malocclusion is purely genetic or environmental. I think more research needs to be done for anyone to make such bold statements as "malocclusion IS genetic" or "malocclusion at old age is environmental." The fact is that NO ONE knows without a doubt which way malocclusion goes as of today. We have stated over and over again that NONE of us agree with breeding ANY maloccluded chinchillas because it very well could be genetic. So get off your high horse Luke and stop acting like you are the only person who speaks out against breeding maloccluded chinchillas.

I do not think anyone I know would breed a mallocluding animal and I do believe most would pull the entire line for safety reasons. I am much more interested in how everyone screens their animals for it as it is always good to learn different ways to detect the same problem . And prevention and precaution is better than losing an entire breeding line of animals.

Never claimed to be the only one. In fact you will find many on this thread with the same point of view. I am convinced that Mall is genetic, Have seen enough research, and enough documentation of current sutuations involving Mall. That for me the evidence is more then ample for me to be satisfied that Mall. is genetic and recessive.
I have never said that I feel Mall. is purely genetic.and that environmental mall. Isn't possible. And when it comes to what animals stay in breeding. I too think it is far better to error on the side of caution and pull chin(s) that might be questionable rather then produce mall.

OK, so it seems we all agree. Breeding maloccluded animals is ill-advised and irresponsible and no one in this thread would do it. Furthermore, we are ALL upset at the idea that anyone would choose to breed a sick or genetically unfit animal. That seems like the end of the argument to me. Luke, in the future, maybe you could consider taking a less accusatory stance, unless you know of a specific individual's wrong actions, since that seems to be the biggest point of contention in this thread.

I can GUARENTEE that chins from the LINES I mentioned earlier are still being bred By members of this forum and elsewhere.Others can verify this fact. So I know for a fact that at least some are still being bred. In fact I have seen on this board and on cnq before it wnet down. Chins from these lines in the for sale section as well as pics of chins in the breeding and babies section listed as being from these lines.
Then I can post that I wonder If their are others being bred. And if the same attitude wich created the huge problem in the recent past is still leading to similair things going on today that I don't know for a fact.
I have said numerious time that Mall. can and will appear in any herd. IMHO the differance between a responsible breeder and one that is not is what is done to reduce the possibility of it reoccuring after it appears.

Mention the lines, or is that another one of your "secrets"? Because if you do not mention the lines that suffer from maloclussion, that makes you just as irresponsible as those that are breeding the very animals with the illness. If I was breeding one of those lines that you know of, I sure as h*** would want to know, and I am sure there's no one on this forum that would disagree with me on that.

And Luke, let me clarify this for you. No one in this thread has purposely stated that they will breed animals with maloclussion. We are all in unison in saying that maloclussion is unacceptable in a herd. It does not matter whether the symptoms are genetic or environmental. If someone here by accident is breeding a line with maloclussion and you know the specific animals in question, then send that person a friendly and informative private message alerting them of the problem. I have the highest hopes that the person will take your information and immediately deal with the problem. If not, let the community know of their non-cooperation. Peer pressure is a powerful tool, and it does not always have to be used in a negative way.

And let us just admit this to ourselves. We have taken these animals out of their natural environment. The natural devices they once had to care for their teeth, mouth, and jaw areas might not be available in a domestic environment. It is these devices that the chinchilla may have adapted to help deal with various dental diseases/illnesses such as maloclussion. We may not be able to ever replicate these devices in a domestic environment, and we can only hope through careful/selective breeding of the chinchilla and through evolution that the chinchilla will adapt to our environment and that dental symptoms will be less of an issue.

As for the "For Sale" section, this forum is one of the few forums that does not have a sort of "heat" or "feedback" for the "For Sale" section. If I purchased an animal from a seller which eventually developed maloclussion, I would leave it in their feedback. They would have the opportunity to respond to my feedback by correcting the problem in their own herd so that no other future seller is affected. Otherwise, the feedback would become negative and it would be a point against the seller. I would also appreciate having a way to leave positive feedback for animals purcahsed in good health, and products purchased with good quality. Is there any way Tunes that this could be implemented on this forum? I know it's a way off-topic suggestion but one that I think could be of use on this forum in protecting potential buyers, and rewarding honest, "reputable" sellers.

And if any of you have ever played World of Warcraft and read their forums, I'm just throwing it out there that this thread is "epic" and on its way to "legendary".

Oh, I agree with the feedback section. That sounds like a great idea! Could this be done?

On a separate note, I think it is clear to everyone that some of you, who know each other, from CnQ or otherwise, have some negative feelings and history. If that's the case fine. But I do think it is something which should be kept out of the discussions at hand. I, personally, am in this thread and any other with the goal of learning and promoting education about all aspects of chinchilla ownership and breeding. I think it is most productive to convey factual information, supported by research whenever possible, and keep the vague accusations, or negative asides to yourself. You don't have to like each other, or even agree. But the way I see it, it is in everyones' interests to communicate respectfully and as objectively as possible. Luke, you speak about wanting to breed in a scientific and methodical way, but you have made several thinly veiled accusations, without supporting data. If you don't want to disclose this information that's fine, but throwing out tidbits, as you have, only serves to needle the others who know what you are referring to. It gives the rest of us no useful information. I think it's also clear that a couple of the other members have their own axes to grind with you, or otherwise, which is equally inappropriate in open forum. For the sake of learning and open communication, could we please just stick to the facts, or at least verifiable experiences?

Let me be clear about my feelings about Mall. It can and will appear in any herd. The differance between a good breeder and a not so good breeder is what happens in their own barn to reduce /eliminate the possibility of it reoccuring.
As far as naming names. My understanding of the rules of this forum are that not only would the post be immediately deleted but I would banned, While that that may be appealing to some it isn't to me. I have been as forthcoming as I can within the rules of this forum.
I am in chins for the long term. and some of us said that we would do all we could to keep such a incident from happening again. Many good up and coming hobby breeders are no longer involved in chins after this incident.
And much pain and suffering was caused and many tears were shed . This breeder made poor breeding choices such as breeding father to daughter and then that ofspring back to the father. Not only did she do this but adviced others to do the same. then attributed all mall. to the environmental issues.
She was a "well known reputable hobby breeder" at the time.
Don't take my word for it ask several hobby breeders you trust who have been around for several years and hopefully they will tell you more about it.

If you want to think of me as someone on a "high horse" "or a holyier then thou attitude" or "someone looking to settle personal vendetta's' To me it doesn't matter. I did what I thought I had to do ,posted what I thought I had to post to raise as much awareness as i could of something that I thought was very important to be disscussed.
And at this point the saying "You can lead a horse to water to you can't make them drink" comes to mind.
So take the info provided in this thread and do what every you wish with it. Investigate more ,discard it as worthless ,what every you want.

Let ME be clear. I don't think of you in any negative light, I don't know you. I do know that you and several other people have taken an unnecessarily accusing tone in this thread, and have obviously been airing some personal grudges. I think neither or these things is appropriate. I would be more than happy to learn whatever you or anyone else on this site has to teach me. I believe, however, that this information is best conveyed without personal issues between members being inserted into the conversation.

As for the assessment of malocclusion by feeling the jaw...I would like to know if this is a valid method for detecting malocclusion early?

As I said earlier we feel for spurs before they are put in breeding. If there are spurs they do not get bred, male or female. It is valid for us, we won't take the chance of malo occuring in them. It won't catch it every time, nothing will, but it works for us. I just have to say that I have nothing against anyone on here, the opinions I expressed come from 40+ years of raising chins and what we have found to be true.

ABBY W. said:

As for the assessment of malocclusion by feeling the jaw...I would like to know if this is a valid method for detecting malocclusion early?

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In terms of detection, feeling for bumps on the lower jaw is certainly a valid method. In fact, it is probably the only real indicator we have with chins until they start showing clear signs of malocclusion - unless one chooses to have all their chins Xrayed (and that's a whole other discussion really).
The bumps which can be felt under the jaw are an indication of the roots pushing against and/or through the jaw bone. Experienced breeders (like Merritt Chinchillas and others) can also feel minor changes and spurs but this takes years of practice and experience.
What is not detected are upper root problems which can follow the same pattern as lower - i.e the physical/anatomical problem is already there but it may not manifest in clinical signs (weepy eyes, quidding, drooling etc) until much further down the line - years in some cases. I will qualify that again by saying that some breeders can feel upper root problems but, again, they have to be pretty far advanced to be felt.
And that's one of the biggest problems we face in breeding chinchillas - when the roots can be felt then the damage is already done (the anatomical changes are occurring and it is only a matter of time before clinical signs are seen) and unknowingly in most cases chins might have been bred from and the problem passed on. So root abruption is not actually an "early" detection in as much as the problem is already there anatomically BUT that does not mean feeling the jawline is not of huge value in chinchilla breeding practices - without the massive expense of Xrays (which is totally impractical unless one is a small hobby breeder anyway). I know a lot of the bigger/older breeders here in the UK do exactly the same - they feel the lower jaw for bumps. It's a good screening tool.

I'd recommend finding a breeder who feels the lower jawline and getting alongside them to learn the techniques and tips - it's amazing what you can pick up from them.

LOL I am a small hobby breeder, and let me say X-raying all of my animals is still totally impractical! But I have tried to run my fingers along the lower jaws of some of my chins. They hate it, but I am more stubborn than they are. I never feel anything until I get to the joint (if that makes sense). But I have not had any maloccluders yet, knock on wood. Thanks for the info. Maybe I can find someone to show me at the York show.

LOL I keep forgetting "small" to us in the UK is probably much smaller than in the US - I simply meant someone with a breeding herd of, say, 4-5 pairs of chins could (in theory) get them Xrayed if they wanted - it would not be completely impractical.

I am aware of numerious (5+) instances where the screening was done , bumps detected. animals taken out of breeding and no visible signs of Mall. were witnessed for a addition 3-5+ years. So in any cases not only is it preventing offspring from being produced but it is preventing numerious generations(1-4) from being produced ,from the time the bumps are detected and when the first visible signs of mall. were observed.