Breeding and Guaranteed Chinnie Health

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LovableFuzziezandCrawliez

LovableFuzziezandCrawliez

Chinchilla Obsession!
Joined
Feb 2, 2009
Messages
137
Location
Cochrane, Alberta
Ok I'll try to explain this so it makes sense.

First I wanted to know how old your breeding chinchillas are when you first pair them with a mate?

Second, I want to know how confident you are when pairing chinchillas that they will not develop health issues down the road? I mean that's what health certificates and pedigrees are for right??


K - let me explain my situation. I got a lovely dark ebony from a great breeder who had got him from another great breeder. Yes they are highly reputable breeders, that's why Im surprised. Anyways - this male ebony HAS been bred before and when I got him he came with a health certificate and pedigree. He was 3 years old when I got him. Because I was still researching breeding I did not pair him with a mate right away.

So at this point he is 6 years old and I was going to pair him with a mate but then I noticed he had some issues and I took him to the vet. As an unexpected diagnosis, the vet told me that his teeth are starting to look bad and he is developing malocclusion. I have dealt with malo before so teeth trims and meds are not a big deal for me but Im kinda PISSED that he was supposed to be HEALTHY as per the previous vet cert and the fact that he came from great breeders who had bred him before!!!

He is obviously NOT being bred here - I have an appt to get him fixed so he can hang with my pet only females.

Should one wait until their chins are "older" to make sure nothing pops up??
Or was this just a case of bad luck do you think??
 
I dont think you can 100% say that any animal will never develope issues, and just because both parent chins do not have malo, does not mean he cant develope it.

Things happen, health issues just like people can present without reason.
 
A previous vet certificate means absolutely nothing. It means that at the time of the visit the chinchilla had no issues, it's not a guarantee that it will never have issues. Nor does a pedigree guarantee anything.

As far as malocclusion goes, does the vet know that it isn't environmental? I think that would be hard to prove in any case. I just went through dental surgery with one of my girls and the vet could not say whether it was genetic or environmental - chicken or the egg - I think it would be nearly impossibly to determine unless there is a "malocclusion gene" or if it was running rampant in certain lines, but having one pop up here and there I would think is nearly impossible to avoid...
 
Malo can pop up even in the best herds.
A health certificate means very little. Basically it just means the animal appeared to be healthy at the time of the exam. It can't predict future illness/disease.
I would at least contact the previous breeders, just to let them know. This is why record keeping is so important.
 
Pedigrees are not guarantees of health and never have been. They are recordings of the lineage.

The health certificate deemed the chinchilla was healthy at the time - I don't think any good, chin knowledgeable vet would ever guarantee an animal's health - genetic or otherwise, much passed the approximate time where the chin was brought in.

And like JM said, how do you know this isn't environmental? Don't be pissed at the breeders, they didn't sell you a chin who they knew had malo - even the vet didn't see signs. If they are "highly reputable" as you say - none of his lines they owned had signs of malo either.

You are doing the right thing by not breeding him, but I wouldn't get him neutered. It is an unnecessary risk, especially if he is already showing signs of teeth issues.
 
About 5 yrs. ago, I had a female develop malocclusion at about 10 months. Her sister and brother were perfect! The pair she was from had about 10 kits in the previous 3 yrs. and none of them developed it, so I believe it was an isolated case, as they never produced another with the problem!
Also had a dk. ebony male and a white ebony female produce dk. ebony kits, whose tails aquired a red tint at about 9 months! Put them with other mates, and it never came about again! Some matings bring out the good/bad of their lineage, and it's up to the breeder to recognize the good/bad and make adjustments accordingly!
And you can never tell what they may develop years down the road!
 
Genetic malo will typically show up at a MUCH earlier age. If this chin is six years old, I highly doubt that the malo is genetic.

Just for informational purposes, malo can be caused by many things. Not enough hay to chew, no wood chews or pumice stones, or something as little as getting a piece of hay stuck between teeth and not being able to chew for a while. Once the teeth start to overgrow, chewing is painful or impossible the appropriate way, and malo develops. Once it's gone on long enough, the roots become involved and it's pretty much a slow, painful death sentence at that point. I'm not saying it's impossible to have teeth trimmed and be fine, but if the roots are involved it's highly unlikely that it won't need to be done again and again for the rest of the chin's life.
 
Stuff happens. I've been told by vets that older chins can develop malo simply because as they age their chewing pattern changes and they don't wear their teeth the same way. It isn't genetic.

I don't think you have anything to be angry at the breeder about. The chin is 6 years old and just NOW the mallo showed up. How were they supposed to know? As menionted, I would definitely let the original breeder know, just so they can keep an eye. But I wouldn't expect them to do anything about it. Had this happened in the first year or 2, then yeah, but not after 6 years and two owners.
 
I'll echo Peggy's post - to develop dental problems at 6 is most likely not genetic and there's no way on God's green earth a breeder would know it was going to pop up.

I'm always surprised that people expect chins to never have tooth trouble even when they hit 5+. It's a bit like saying all humans that hit 60+ should have all their own teeth and no fillings - some do and some don't.
 
Thanks for everyone's reply. I realize that health certs and even pedigrees can be useless (and that calls into questions their validity but that is a whole other debate that has been discussed previously Im sure!)

No, I am not mad at the breeders because I am aware that they would have no idea since the issues just popped up now. It just struck me as a curious thing, how issues can spring up in really the best of lines. It's perplexing!

The vet did not tell me wether is was environmental. She really just told me after a quick glance at his mouth that his teeth are starting to look bad and it might be best to pull him from breeding lines to ensure that if it is genetic, it does not get passed along. Which made sense to me. He was at the vet for a totally different reason so she never actually spent a lot of time examining his teeth - she just noted them and told me to watch for drooling, etc.

I have noticed today that he is drooling so I am going to take him in for x-rays, saliva swabs, the whole works just to make sure that if it is something environmental and if it is easy to fix, like something stuck in his teeth that the vet simply didn't notice before, then the problem will be solved!!

I'll post updates. Thanks everyone!!
 
I agree. It may be environmental, or it may be genetic. But either way I would at least contact the breeder to let then know. Better safe then sorry. If it was a chin I had bred I wouyld like to know even if it was one case. Good luck with your boy.
 
I totally echo what Peggy said and I have to say that you cannot guarantee against everything and because of his age I would not expect the breeder to even guarantee afte tha tlong as how would they know. Unfortunately there is no crystal ball to predict whether any animal is going to develop problems later in life. IF he was a young chin or something I could see some upset but given his age it is so hard to tell anything. I agree with Brea though Iwould still let the breeder know as I know I would like to know.
 
Wow, so much to comment on here.

First off, "reputable" breeders don't pull males from breeding unless there is a reason, so either the breeder was not as reputable as you thought, or the animals was not what you thought in the first place.

Then, you go three years without putting him in breeding, but NOW it is an issue that you can't? Just doesn't make sense to me.

Lastly other beat me to the punch. Although you are doing the responsible thing to not breed him genetic malo generally set's in much earlier. Do you feed loose hay? and if so how much and how often and does he eat it?
 
Obviously I feed loose timothy hay and yes he eats it often - until recently with his teeth spikes.

The reason I did not breed him right away was because I was researching all the necessary info on chinnie breeding. So what if it took me 3 years? I had him initially because I was interested in breeding ebonies, the breeder I bought him from was aware that I was a newbie to breeding and she offered to coach me on a few things. So to have a breeding chinchilla and not breed him right away is NOT a problem. I don't understand your issue there. Really, the teeth problem just popped up and what am I supposed to do about it? Exactly what Im doing right? The timing is weird but **** happens. I really hope you are not implying that I have been breeding him this whole time. Im not a friggin idiot.

I had him and I researched breeding until I felt comfortable - I fail to see any problems there.


I'd be willing to tell you the breeders he came from. I know that the initial reason I got him was because she was getting out of ebonies. That seems logical to sell your ebonies if you no longer wish to breed them. The reason he was sold by the first breeder I dont know.

Anyways, he came back from the vet and they have not found anything stuck in between his teeth or any other visual issue with his mouth. The trimmed two spikes and I rescheduled an appointment to have an x-ray done. Hopefully, that will show me something.
 
No, I wasn't implying you bred him during that time or did anything wrong, I was simply stating that it seems odd it was no big deal he sat without being bred for 3 years in your possession but now it is a big deal you can't breed him.
LovableFuzziezandCrawliez said:
Obviously I feed loose timothy hay and yes he eats it often - until recently with his teeth spikes.

The reason I did not breed him right away was because I was researching all the necessary info on chinnie breeding. So what if it took me 3 years? I had him initially because I was interested in breeding ebonies, the breeder I bought him from was aware that I was a newbie to breeding and she offered to coach me on a few things. So to have a breeding chinchilla and not breed him right away is NOT a problem. I don't understand your issue there. Really, the teeth problem just popped up and what am I supposed to do about it? Exactly what Im doing right? The timing is weird but **** happens. I really hope you are not implying that I have been breeding him this whole time. Im not a friggin idiot.

I had him and I researched breeding until I felt comfortable - I fail to see any problems there.


I'd be willing to tell you the breeders he came from. I know that the initial reason I got him was because she was getting out of ebonies. That seems logical to sell your ebonies if you no longer wish to breed them. The reason he was sold by the first breeder I dont know.

Anyways, he came back from the vet and they have not found anything stuck in between his teeth or any other visual issue with his mouth. The trimmed two spikes and I rescheduled an appointment to have an x-ray done. Hopefully, that will show me something.
Click to expand...
 
I personally belive in the Empress Chinchilla Breeders Cooperative Code of Ethics. wich in part "Do not represent that a animal is free from ailments,condition,or habit from wich freedom can not be definately assured ,and made the basis for a written representatation."
I personally can't guarentee any animal I produce will not develop Mall, or fur chew down the road. Or even guarentee that it is not a Mal carrier and I don't know anyone who can.
There for on health issues I think it is "buyer beware"
 
It is a big deal that he is not breedable now and if this issue had come up in the past 3 years then it would have been a big deal before. Does it matter now or then?? Sorry I got upset but I dont understand why it matters "when".

It's not like he was just useless sitting there - research takes time right?

Thats a great statement RMC thank you for posting that. It is impossible to guarantee that every animal despite a pedigree, etc, can be free of ailments forever.

Doesn't it seem a little disheartening that you never really know what you are getting when searching for great breeding stock?
 
I'm with everyone else that it is likely NOT genetic...I have always thought that genetically malo pops up much earlier in their lifetime though I'm not sure if I read it somewhere of if it was an "original idea" but after so many years chins can develop tooth problems if you look at them the wrong way :) Something as simple as them hitting the side of the cage the wrong way could cause it and unless you monitor your chin 24/7 you'll never know. Now, if it comes in the first few years of life OR there is a heavy lineage of it (for instance parents or siblings) then I would highly suspect genetics. But this is not the case here.

That all said, I still wouldn't breed the animal at this point and would probably still notify the original breeder as well incase they HAVE had it pop up in related lines. Just so they know that it could be genetic should they see a trend.

Finally, my policy on chinchillas is that if a person takes a chin from me home and it develops a condition that a liscensed vet will say is either definitely genetic OR definitely occured while in my care THEN I will replace/refund. Other than that, it's buyer beware.
 
Vyxxin said:
Finally, my policy on chinchillas is that if a person takes a chin from me home and it develops a condition that a liscensed vet will say is either definitely genetic OR definitely occured while in my care THEN I will replace/refund. Other than that, it's buyer beware.
Click to expand...

So, if someone comes to you three years down the road, you'll still honor this? A licensed vet can say anything. I'm not suggesting that this isn't a good policy, but you may want to consider a time limit on it.
 
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