Yoshi still not progressing

[diamondkelt]

I have a post over in the Health & Hygiene area, but decided I needed more immediate advice.

Yoshi had been suffering with extremely frequent hair rings on and off, but they appeared to clear up after his normal dust baths.

I know sometimes when hair rings are that frequent it can be a pain reaction and my husband and I both noticed that he'd slowly been rejecting his hay, then grinding down his pellets and then finally not chewing on hardly anything.

We got him into our vet who is an exotics guy and who has looked after several chins over his years. I explained everything to him and the fact that I knew even without weighing him that he was losing weight and fast because he wasn't eating. The vet did xrays on his entire mouth and a full exam. His front incisors were overgrown due to not gnawing on anything so he trimmed them back. Then he found that he was bleeding in the back of his mouth...kind of right at the "hinge" of the jaw. He thought it possible that there might a tumor in the back, but the only way to tell is via a biopsy which means going under AGAIN, taking a sample of the cells and sending it off to a lab.

I really don't know if there's time for that as it could take up to a week to get results.
He put him on Baytril (i believe) which I've read repeatedly is useless for dental infections and it's totally bombed his appetite though his trying to nibble when he can.
It's been a full 7 days now and Yoshi is still drooling excessively and his front paws are constantly soaked as is his chest. I can't keep him dry And he's starting to rub the sides of his jaw on his perches. I will say that his water intake does appear to be somewhat normal which is strange to me, but his poops are definitely decreasing. He laps up the Baytril from the syringe because (i think) it's the only thing he can eat right now.

I have a call in to the vet already and will be taking him back in on Monday as the antibiotic has done jack sh** imo and is just masking the problem. I don't believe it to be a tumor, but dreaded malo despite what the vet is saying. All signs point to a bad dental situation and I'm getting to my wit's end and my pocket book is draining with all his recent visits and "treatments".

I truly feel like I'm prolonging his pain, but I can't bring myself to accept it. He's slowly starving despite all our nursing and gentle feeding. He comes to the front of the cage still and just wants to be petted and held close. I know he feels horrible still and I can't make him feel any better.

Is this really the end?

 

[Riven]

Are you giving critical care or any other food replacement?

Do you have a copy of the xrays? If so please post them.

Did he do an oral exam to check for spurs? Is this a vet with chin experience? Exotic does NOT equal chins. Tumor sounds funny to me. Stuck with a piece of hay and abscess.. possible, tumor on the jaw hinge doesn't sound probable.

Hopefully someone else will chime in with further advice.

 

[Newt]

It doesnt have to be the end. He needs some critical care syringe feed as soon as possible. Also, get some pain meds, like metacam, and find another vet for a second opinion.

If you cant get critical care for a day or two, then grind up some pellets and add some water to make a paste. If he wont eat the paste on his own, then add more water and use a syringe to feed him. You'll probs have to "burrito" him for this though (search the forum for heaps of tips). But yeah, he needs food ASAP. You should add some probiotics to the mix too, to counter the effect of the baytril on his gut flora. Acidophilus capsules from the chemist will do.

I lost two chins to the dreaded malo, so I understand your pain. But definitely get another opinion soon.

good luck, and best wishes xxxx

 

[hownowbrowncow]

I agree with the above. Tumour sounds pretty out in left field. Posting the xrays would be helpful if the vet can email them to you (most will). Metacam and critical care are a must. Some chins prefer apple & banana critical care to the regular flavour and you might need a second person to help you burrito your chin. Some take it right away or will eat it off the spoon, my guy had to be burrito'd and it took a while for him to get used to it. Metacam is yummy flavoured for chins so giving that should be easier

It doesn't have to be the end, but you need to get your chin proper care and a good chin vet.

 

[ticklechin]

Baytril does squat alone for dental infections, it needs to be used with flagyl for any chance, chin should also be on metecam. The swelling is covering something up and needs to be reduced so a good look can happen. I have never heard of a tumor in the jaw hinge, lots of times its a rear molar that has a distal point that is digging in, or its a point that has broken off in the tissue, or its a nasty periodontal pocket, or its something like hay or wood splinter jamed in there. Vets just don't know how to read x-rays I have come to find. In the mean time feed the chin 60ml+ a day of critcal care broke up into 10-15ml feedings and get a second opinion. Or ask for a copy of the x-rays and post them here, we have alot of people here who can give you a idea of what is going on.

 

[diamondkelt]

Hopefully I can answer all of these.

Exotic vet - yes he cares for several chinchillas and has several years experience with them. He was recommended to me by another chin owner.

Xrays - apparently the vet did NOT take xrays when we were back in a week and 2 days ago. I'm hoping to get some done here in the next few days if possible and financially feasible. I'm furious! He told me he did xrays I am requesting copies of the ones they took in 2011 though when he first got his "bone spur" but supposedly none of the vet techs are in today and are away at conference or something.

He did do a full mouth exam when I went back to tell him that he still was drooling profusely and he did it right there in the room with me while I held Yoshi. He said the infection in the back of the mouth was gone and it was a nice healthy pink again, but that doesn't explain the drooling in the least.

Examined his belly area and no blockages, eyes and ears for signs of infection there and nothing. His nose isn't runny either, but his right eye the side that his bone spur is on gets lots of gunk in the corner.

Food - he's back to nibbling/eating regular pellets (oxbow)He's holding steady at 1 lb .02 oz but isn't gaining either. His water in take is healthy.

The vet now said if he's still not improving he wants to do blood work, but that seems silly for a chin. I am talking to my husband to see if we can afford full xrays again.

My gut says it's his teeth. Unless there's something else that can cause drooling? He sits and wipes his mouth constantly. I hate that I can feel his backbone when I pet him. He feels much too fragile these days.
Also I don't know where else to take him as there aren't many chin vets in the area that I know of and we did an extensive search 9 years ago before we got him to make sure we had a place to take him.

 

[ticklechin]

When the vet did the oral exam was the chin awake? If so, there is no way to do a good oral exam on a awake chin, the vet will just get the gist of what is going on. If the chin was put under, the vet should have taken x-rays. A set of x-rays read by a vet knows what he is doing is what is needed, you are flying blind without them and can only offer supportive care by feeding, you will not get down to the bottom of the issue without it.

 

[diamondkelt]

I guess my last post didn't go thru Dawn, but I got Yoshi scheduled for a full set of oral xrays the day I posted all my replies to the questions and found out that he didn't actually get the xrays he needed. I've lurked enough on here and read thru lots of the malo threads to know that I need to take a firm hand at the vet if they don't do what's needed (thanks to your know how and experience on both subjects )

I hope you all don't think we're ignorant chin parents. We're doing our best, I promise.
My posts are still being moderated so they don't appear as quickly as they should sometimes.
He's definitely going under for these and he's going in TODAY 2.22.13. I talked to the vet directly on the phone and made double sure that he'd take interior xrays of his mouth as well as exteriors again. I also voiced my concerns with the anethesia being too much since he's so frail atm.

Apparently the vet said he didn't do the interior xrays initially because of our financial concerns which were relayed to him by the techs, but I told him that I NEEDED to know what was going on and asked why he didn't double check with me? So the hubby took him in early this morning despite all the ice we got over night.

He's no longer taking any forms of food and is gapping his mouth horribly. If the vet denies my diagnosis that it IS his teeth, he's freakin' off his rocker. And so far as I know the next closest recommended chin vet is in Cincinnati (1.5 hrs away). I had to roll my eyes when my husband called and told me the manager asked if he'd eaten since he was "going under" because they didn't want him to vomit. She obviously knows nothing about chinchillas and their lack of puking powers.
I wrote a long note with all of his new symptoms and habits that had happened in the last 3 days since his last visit and made sure they put it in his file so the Dr could read over it.
I will update once they call me later today and I know more.

 

[landrk11]

So sorry to hear all your little one is going through. I will be thinking of your little guy today! Hope all goes well and he is OK.

 

[diamondkelt]

UPDATE!

Vet did full xrays of his mouth and body. He found no abcesses, no pockets, no broken teeth, no overgrown roots. He said he lightly filed down a few teeth, but he could not even find any misalignment between the jaws.

He's baffled. He actually told me that all the signs point to malo but there's nothing showing up and his body cavity is all clear as well.

He checked for a URI and his sinuses are clear as well as his lungs. They're giving him some fluids as he's dehydrated, but he can't for all his experience with chins think what else could be causing these symptoms.

So our next step is blood work and the quickest will know the results is Monday, but he's refusing so much food and water now that I don't know if he has till then.

Advice please!! I'm on the verge of ordering the blood work as I don't know what else to do

 

[diamondkelt]

UPDATE #2

Yoshi had his blood drawn and is doing well on the fluids. Currently has had one dose of Metacam and we're going to pick up a differnt Oxbow CC tonight (the apple/banana flavored one). We're hoping that getting more fluid in him may perk him up enough to start nibbling pellets again and then eat more CC till he's regained the majority of his lost weight back.

It's all uphill from here. I think we're going to try and battle whatever the heck he has till we know what his blood work shows....and even then there's no telling if the lab results will even show anything or if we're just "making him comfortable" in his last leg of his journey.

If they don't and are inconclusive does anyone else have any other theories about what could be causing him to shut down?
I'm going to ask about the hepatic lipid thing when I pick him up in 3 hrs. since he lost weight so rapidly. I would think something like that would show up in his lab.

The vet has really up'd his game as have the techs and they're working hard to help Yoshi and us out. They've been as upbeat as possible with each call today.

 

[ticklechin]

Can you ask for a copy of the x-rays of the head? Won't hurt to post it for other opinions. What did the vet think was the growth at the jaw hinge, could he see that on the x-ray or is it gone?

 

[diamondkelt]

I plan on getting copies of both the old and new xrays he did. I would think he'd release them to me without much ado. In any case I'm sure everyone reading this is still thinking it's malo and I am too because what the heck else would cause such prolific drooling?

Hopefully my other post pops up soon with the Update #2 so I don't rehash everything.

 

[diamondkelt]

UPDATE #3

Yoshi's home now and a little more perky. About to give him his first real CC dose and go from there.

My hubby and I both saw the xrays and they are a clean sweep. Aside from a tiny bur in the back his mouth which is what the vet filed down there was nothing there. The xrays look picture perfect. I still asked if he could email them to me so I could post them up here for you all to look at and offer any suggestions. So I'm still waiting on getting those. Sorry it's not faster.

Ironically he was at a vet conference in Columbus yesterday and was attending a seminar on chinchillas and he even asked around up there about Yoshi's symptoms and no one could pinpoint it either.

Could that tiny of a bur making him drool like he had a hose in his throat?? My hubby just observed him do the gapping yawn motion and said he's pulling/wiping at the sides of his tongue. Is that just from all the drooling?

 

[Cuddlebug]

Has the vet checked to see if the tongue was injured during the filing? Your last description of his behavior really sounds like his tongue hurts.

 

[diamondkelt]

As far as we can tell it was not injured, but that doesn't mean it's not. I believe it's yet another symptom of whatever is going on with him. Also he had had a dose of Metacam about 4 hrs. prior to us observing Yoshi doing it and I'm not familiar with how well Meta covers up pain in chins since this is our first time using it.

Please keep the suggestions coming.
Dawn we watched your video on force feeding and after 30-40 min all we could get him to swallow was maybe 1/2 tsp. I know it's not enough, but I'm exhausted (we have a 6 no. old who still doesn't sleep thru the night and I'm BF her as well). We're still making attempts but he's getting very po'd at us and will not swallow now.

Going to let him rest for a few hours.

 

[diamondkelt]

Today is Yoshi's last day with us. We awoke to him laying in his cage in a pancake sized drool puddle. He didn't/ wouldn't move. It's so heartbreaking.

Thank you all for your help and suggestions. If we ever determine the cause I will let you all know. For now, we're at peace. It was a rough final week for us all.

 

[hownowbrowncow]

I'm so sorry to hear that. I know how hard it is to lose a furbaby. *hugs*

 

[becky12883]

Oh no, I'm so sorry! Hopefully you can figure out what caused this for some peace of mind. You obviously cared very much and did as much as you could.

 

[tcraighenry]

Oh no, I am so sorry about your little Yoshi