When To Go From Supplementing to Handfeeding

[Vyxxin]

SO, it's been a triplet year for me. Which is NOT typical here. Usually I have a litter of triplets born every couple of years. It's a rarity that I have to handfeed. That all said, my most recent litter of trips...born at: 48g, 47g & 41g. I usually wait to see what's going to happen before stepping in to do any feeding. Day one a little bit of fighting, nothing serious, no injuries, maintained weight. Days 2-6 a little big of weight loss down to 46g, 44g & 40g. So I KNOW mother has SOME milk. Around day 5 I gave mom some fenugreek though I honestly do not have much experience using it.

Here's my dilemma. After a week of no gain, only slow loss...I've about concluded the mother just doesn't have enough milk to feed them all. SO I started supplementing. Initially I was getting .5-1cc in each kit. I'm now getting about 1.5-2.25cc in each kit roughly 4x per day. I'm using canned goatsmilk. I like it because I can store it in the cabinet and have it on hand rather than buying fresh and having a use by date. I've also recently started adding a tiny bit of baby ceareal to the milk.

NOW, my issue. At 9 days old my kits are at 50g, 48g, 46g. What do you all think...am I doing ENOUGH or should I be feeding MORE? More frequently that is? I ask as this is a rarity for me. Either the mother has had enough milk entirely OR a kit has been injured and I've had to straight handfeed.

The kits are awesome, spunky, healthy little ones. They always have been even when I wasn't handfeeding and they were slowly losing weight. They take the formula very readily and are some of the easiest to feed kits I've ever dealt with. At this time I don't want to try hanging a bottle as it's not something I've ever done or trust to do at this time.

Did I step in too soon? Should I be straight handfeeding any of them or am I doing it right? Yeah, after almost 9years I still have questions. Handfeeding is not something I'm prone to. I hardly ever have triplets, have only had maybe two litters of quads and NEVER anything larger in a litter. I usually don't supplement, usually just straight handfeed. So this is a new approach for me. I'm very glad the kits all get along, that's one of the biggest downfalls of big litters I find. Anyhow, just wanted some reassurance or another opinion?

 

[jbcstratton]

I am curious to hear others responsed as well. I had twin not long ago that were small to start and were loosing weight, went down to 39 and 45 grams, so I stepped in and supplemented but after about 2 weeks they refused my supplementing, so I assume mothers milk came in. Now I also have a new set of triplet. 46,47 and 60 grams. After a week the smallest one was the only one not gaining, and one of the bigger kits had a wound on its ear. I started supplementing the smallest and he is gaining but what a difference at 2 weeks 55, 90 and 100 grams.

 

[Sue]

If they're taking the milk you're feeding, then they're hungry. If they weren't hungry, they wouldn't want it. As long as they're gaining a few grams a day, I'd keep it up. Even if mom has enough for them, a lot of times you'll have a dominant kit that will intimidate a smaller one and keep it from getting enough milk. Better to be safe than sorry. We've had a year of a lot of triplets too and I've been handfeeding/supplementing someone's litter since January. We just had another triplet litter born yesterday, whew! Eventually you can drop down to one or two feedings once they're bigger. Keep it up.

 

[Spoof]

I have never completely hand fed a kit, but when I have supplement I only feed twice a day. This has always worked for me, never lost a hungry kit. I have always felt that if I fed more they would rely more on what I was giving them than suckling from mom.

I'd personally cut back, see if they still gain. You may not even have to feed them at the end of the week - the important part is that they all have a nipple, and not one or two for three. That's what seems to get larger litters into trouble. Kits also appear to gain at a specific rate regardless of how much they eat. This has been true for all fosters I've done, it is interesting.

Sue, that sounds like too much work! I never hand feed triplets or quads either. If mom can't do it I foster babies out and she doesn't stick around.

Good luck with them!

 

[Vyxxin]

Spoof, that's about what I was thinking. I didn't want to make them too dependant and cause mom's milk to dry up. Likewise, I don't want them backsliding. Also, I'm of the "school" that if the mother doesn't produce enough milk...she's not an animal I want in my herd. She's done well enough that they don't die. They're always on a nipple when I check in and their tummies have never felt fully empty...but likewise, they're always willing to take a little. Sometimes only .5cc still. but with their morning feedings they take about 2cc. I try to get in 3 feedings in a day for now. Just wasn't sure if I should wean...or increase. This isn't a road I much travel. I'm usually all or nothing with litters. Thanks for the input.

 

[Sue]

Yeah, it is work. That's how we save trips, quads and quints. Done 'em all. But you go do it your way.

 

[Vyxxin]

Well, I may just not have to worry about it. Had a single LARGE kit born today. She's a touch bigger than any of the triplets but a good foster candidate. Mother accepted second kit, now if the kit will feed. I am SO worried that my supplementing could result in lazy kits and/or less milk from mom. I'm going to keep checking weights but for ONCE luck was on my side. This is the time of year I normally have a boom though so I'm not surprised. My next few litters are expected to be twins or more though. SO it's good "to know" info that I couldn't find through search. My kits weights were all up as of this evening, 53g, 51g, 50g. We shall see! Maybe leave this open to get some more input for reference.

 

[tunes]

Sue, I'm with you. I decided to be a breeder, the chins didn't ask for it. So I will help the little ones (and the mom) any time they need it. Yes, it's time consuming. So what? Owning a herd of chins is time consuming. I have yet to have kits I am supplementing stop nursing from mom just because I am giving them formula. I also don't kick a female to the curb because she can't support a litter of triplets on her own one time. The next time, she may do just fine. Do I prefer to foster? Of course, because mom's milk is always better than store bought, but I don't always have a foster available, so I step in and do it myself.

 

[Spoof]

Awesome! I'd like to hear what others do too. I think I'll start a thread for the supplement vs. non question. It would be very interesting to hear from people who've had herds 10-15+ years.

 

[Vyxxin]

Peg, my statements were generalized. I usually do not HAVE to step in. I've always stepped in when kits needed help...hence the straight handfed vs. no feeding at all. This is a middle of the road, supplementing is, and it's not one I'm familiar with. Handfeeding, I've done handfeeding. But I've never tried supplementing and was worried that too frequent feedings would cause the kits not to try and nurse which is still the goal.

As far as my females go, I fully understand not being able to support a little of 3 the first time around. This was her very first litter. My last triplets were also to a first time mother...they won't be leaving until I have a track record on them. If they continue to produce threes and need help then they need a pet home. If they produce twos in their following litters and do just fine or even produce threes and do just fine then they'll stay on as breeders. But it's not natural to nurse the litters for them. Not about time, it's about what's natural. If a mother cannot support her litters, she shouldn't be in breeding.

 

[Sue]

I wouldn't bust them for producing threes. Man, you've got a great animal producing three kits. You've got to decide to do the time or not get the dime. A mom that produces three or even four is not a curse, but I know that a few breeders out there nix it since they don't want to deal with it. I had a female that produced 10 animals in a year's time, two litters of four and a litter of two. Is she resting? You betcha. It's hard to determine something like that and get the male out every time in time!! Sometimes you just have to do the work yourself, just like with kids.

 

[Vyxxin]

If they continue to produce threes and need help then they need a pet home.

Not about quantity, about quality. I don't care if a mother produces ten kits as long as she can nurse them. Because I don't want to do the work? No. It's because I think it's unnatural. Period. We shouldn't HAVE to repeatedly care for any given chinchillas kits. Once in a while is one thing. Every litter or even every other litter tells me they're not genetically sound to be breeding.

I know a lot of things contribute to milk production and/or kit loss. But that's part of breeding for healthy animals IMO. Breeding poor milkers into a line, or mothers who cannot feed ALL kits in a litter is no less a fault than breeding in malo, IMO. As a breeder it's something I feel should be a consideration.

That all said, the original female that this thread was started about she's a first time mother and had a litter of triples. I was supplementing with a little bit of gain here and there. A female littered a nice sized single kit and I figured I could foster one of the triplets out. Goes off without a hitch. Foster mom accepts new kit, kit is feeding and staying warm. Each mother has two kits and all kits are slowly gaining. Few days go by, go down middle of the day for chin checks find a very stiff, motionless kit in with the original mother. SO, needless to say, she's now down to just ONE kit with her. If she cannot nurse this single by herself I will have serious reservations about breeding her again.

 

[Sue]

Well, if it's quality, then I'm going to assume you made an investment in the mom and the male that you had in with her, so wouldn't it be a good idea to at least see how the kits turn out? If the only problem with her is that she's slow on milk, and you said that it's her first litter so that is really common in first litters, AND many kits have problems that we can't see like internal abnormalities, etc., so it may not be the mom that's the problem, I still wouldn't dump her. Some of my section champs came from moms that struggled. Yes, it is quality.

 

[Vyxxin]

Oh, I intend to give another litter...maybe two...but handfeeding is NOT natural. The same as furchewing and malo aren't. They occur in nature, sure. But as with other species, when we humans interfere...the outcome may initially be better/desireable...but the long term effects generally aren't.

Both parents are my lines. Beyond that are actually lines NEW to my herd. I don't have a terribly long history on the milk production. I know the males first litter was a single, also a first time mom. Kit's getting huge. Second litter is this litter. Three kits, one died and the other two aren't exactly thriving even though one is now a single kit with the original mother and the other a double with a foster. Third litter to this male is twins born today. We shall see.

He's a pretty boy all and of himself. Res. Sec. Champ...but that is never worth low milk production IMO.

As far as the original topic, when to go from supplementing to handfeeding...this is a first attempt at supplementing and I'm not overly thrilled with the results. The kit that died, was found in a position that would indicate perhaps a high fall or jumped on by female. I honestly don't think it was from lack of nutrition. Just the same, the two remaining kits aren't gaining well...and...to top it all off...they seem to prefer handfeedings which is what I was afraid of them becoming dependant on me. Sure, I can do it. But it will not help prove lactation ability of the mother(s). And again, now I'm at a total loss as they're nearly two weeks old...just barely above birth weight...and I'm not sure I should fully step in or not. Has my handfeeding left the mother(s) too dry to nurse? I see them feeding, their bellies are rarely empty...but they're not really gaining now and the loss of todays kit has me really worried that if I don't fully step in I may lose the other two. To compound the issue, with them NOW being two weeks old...but not really straight handfed, I'm not entirely sure how often/how much they should be eating.

As I said, I've always either handfed...or not. No middle of the road. So if I do go to handfeeding now should I treat them as newborns and feed them on a newborn schedule or treat them as two week olds and handfeed on a two week old schedule?

Not fun at all, the tough decisions of a devoted breeder.

 

[Pookinaround]

Sorry to hear about the kit! I'd be curious to see if the kit who is still with mom begins to gain more now that it is all by itself....That may help you decide what is best.

 

[Spoof]

So you have two kits each on different mothers not gaining?

This might be a sign of something else? Do you have any other animals from this line in your herd to compare to, or is this a new line? I've noticed fostering over the years that kits gain at a set rate, regardless of how much the mother(s) or you milk.

If you are feeding them four times a day, and they are taking all they can handle, they should be gaining quite a bit. 3-4g of milk will equal 1g of weight gain. If they are taking that from you at each feeding and not gaining weight there is something else going on.

 

[tunes]

If it was me, I would start hand feeding on a regular schedule - maybe not every 2 hours, but every 3 to start for sure. If they are not gaining, something is wrong.

I had a first time mom have trips not too long ago. I'm sure she could have supported them, but the smallest one kept getting beat up because he wanted the nipple the largest one had. (I do NOT understand why they do that!) I started hand feeding and it took me forEVER to get him to gain. He would be up 1 gm, down 1 gm, up 2 gm, down 1 gm. I was beginning to wonder if he would ever thrive. He's a healthy little bugger now, I was able to foster him out, but he's small. His siblings are easily twice his size. He nurses though. From the moment I put him in with his foster mom, he latched on and wouldn't let go!

 

[saphire]

If all seem to be gaining except for 1, I will supplement the larger ones and alternate. This allows to get the milk the smaller ones to get mom's milk instead of goats milk.
I give a pinch of fenugrek to the mom mixed in with a pinch of LL.

If all four have the issue and have no fosters, I between feeds, I will put a little warm bowl of goats milk/rice cereal and yes a tinny bit of LL. This usually helps. In the case where none gain and are stable I try another day, that means they are possibly getting the hang of drinking from the little bowl.

If they stay stable or lose, If all four have the issue and have no fosters, I between feeds, I will put a little warm bowl of goats milk/rice cereal and yes a teeny bit of LL. (Can't hurt) This usually helps. In the case where none gain and are stable, that means they are possibly getting the hang of drinking from the little bowl and I try another day,. If they stay stable or lose, I can only think that mom has milk but not enough and I then will supplement 1/2 the litter very two hours so the other 1/2 feeds from mom and avoiding her to dry mom up.

If mom has no milk at all and no fosters, I then feed every two hours and become the zombie.

 

[Sue]

I may be a haven in the wilderness, but in 17 years of breeding, I have never seen a female not produce milk, other than for a first litter, (same as me with my first born), thereafter. I'm sorry, but this is a crock as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Sue]

Okay, so I posted something in the wrong place. What I wanted to say is that yes, we supplement all if need be, but the one that is not gaining gets the most attention. If they're not gaining two grams the first week each day and more so the next weeks each day, you're in trouble. And if we see there's fighting, mostly a bite under the eye or under the chin, then they're separated for the day; meaning they rotate in with mom and we feed both teams on their way in and on their way out. The ones that are fighting are kept separate. I try to keep them together at night with mom.