When is it too much?

[ChilliPepper]

After 2 visits for filings, 3 weeks apart, I am starting to get very sad. I noticed Chilli throwing his pellets again a couple of nights ago. We are going back to twice a day pain meds. That seems to have helped, I will have hubby weigh him tonight. I have been super sick, so even being in there long enough to give him his meds is irritating my lungs due to hay and dust allergies that are not usually an issue.
So if he eats on pain meds, and seems otherwise very happy, is it too soon to think about the inevitable?
I want what is best for Chilli, but I really do not have $200 every month to spend at the vets. I had it for the first 2 visits, but now it has been only 3 weeks again. The vet explained that as his swelling goes down, more spurs may be revealed that are causing the mouth ulcerations.

What would you all do?
Oh, the filings were on different teeth each time.

 

[tunes]

When he has him under anesthesia, why doesn't he do ALL his teeth at once? Even if there is swelling, that shouldn't affect the top of his teeth, unless his gums have grown over them. Constantly putting him under is hard on him, and seems designed to take money out of your wallet. Open his mouth, get his cheeks out of the way, and do all his teeth at once. Then you can be a better judge of how long between filings and whether he is recovering from them or not. Constantly putting him under anesthesia is not a good thing.

As far as how often? I'm not one to go on and on about prolonging a chin's life who has malo. If you did one trimming and it lasted for 6 months, that's one thing. But every month? No. I personally would not do it. I think you end up keeping the chin alive for you and not for them. When you are filing every month, it's obvious that the disease is progressing faster than you can control it, so you are fighting a losing battle, putting him through anesthesia, painful filings, drugs after, hand feedings, etc. It's not something I would choose to do.

I have 270 chins, so money HAS to come into it. But with the economy as it is now, I don't know of a whole lot of people who can throw out $200.00 a month in vet bills.

I'm sorry you are both going through this. It absolutely sucks.

 

[ChilliPepper]

From what she said, the second round ones were not visible the first time. Even with the x-rays, she did not see any more that would need immediate attention. So I don't know if he just needs more meds, it just seems so hard to give up on him when he gives me that imp face while he won't give his syringe back after sucking all the pain meds he can out of it. He has dropped another 3 grams after having gained almost all his weight back. The weight loss seemed to coincide with when we dropped his meds down to once a day.

 

[tunes]

Some chins take over a month to get back to normal after a tooth filing. Maybe what you are thinking of as a tooth issue, is just him being in pain from the teeth already filed. Try giving him a mix of critical care and ground up pellets. Not powder ground, but chunky. That way he is getting nutrition from the critical care, but not completely getting rid of his normal pellet. If he holds his weight and eats, try cutting back the pain meds to once a day. If he continues to hold his weight, try cutting that dose in half, etc. until he is off of them and eating and holding his own. Take him in for a check up after a couple months and see how his teeth look at that point. You can try weaning him off the critical care as well, but if he eats the mix, including the pellets, it might not be a bad idea to just leave him on the mix. The pellets will work his teeth, and critical care will provide adequate nutrition he doesn't get if he doesn't eat enough pellets.

Keep in mind, different pain meds can be hard on the liver and kidneys, so prolonged pain meds in larger doses can be doing more harm than good.

 

[ChilliPepper]

Does anyone else have an opinion on this?
The update is that we have adjusted his med schedule and he is doing better. Last night's weight after 1 hour of playtime was 629, up from 615 last Friday. I think what was happening was that we were giving him the meds too late in the evening and if he had tried to eat and it hurt, he wouldn't try again even after the meds were given. Now that he gets them early, he seems to be doing fine eating his pellets.

 

[mishellyshel]

i will give you my experience, keeping in mind that our chins probably have different tooth issues.
I took Richie in March to a vet, she determined that he had a mouth infection after the first round of antibiotics, he was still experiencing the symptoms, so i took him to an exotic specialist that did digital x-rays, a tooth filing, pulled a tooth, etc.... and i belive that was in late april or may. i took him back to his regular vet in june just to update her, we tried some new meds that didnt work.
all the while i have been handfeeding him a mixture of crushed up pellet, canned pumpkin & filtered water.
than chinniechantel on this forum told me about a pain reliever that she used for one of her chins with malo and i insited that my vet do research & prescribe. which she did!
i noticed that in august he started drooling and i noticed a tooth spur on his bottom.
so back he went. She ended up doing a filing and noticed he had an abrasion (prob from the spur) so she prescribed me an antibiotic (trimeth sulfa--the pink stuff!) she said i can give it to him everyday, as it is not very strong.
Since the first week of august he has been getting the Tramadol 2 x per day, metacam 1 x a day, cisapride 3 x a day and the trimeth 2 x a day plus lifeline at every feeding.
i also still handfeed him 3 times a day and i crush up rosehips in his food mix.
he does not really eat any snacks. will try & eat a little hay. last week i backed off on his handfeeding and he did eat a couple pellets, but his weight dropped too much so i back to handfeeding. he eats between 40 - 60 cc's at each feeding and his weight fluctuates between 635 & 660.
i have been where you are many times, deciding if i should put him down, usually i am feeding him and crying on his little head but since august he has been doing pretty well.
yesterday was the first time i heard him grind his teeth, he seemed like he was just having a bad day yesterday. once he starts drooling again and starts grinding his teeth, i will have to take him back to the vet. if he doesnt have any noticible spurs and another grinding doesnt help than at that point it will be time to let him go.
but he is still very active and is still pooping & peeing and jumping around.
if it came down to monthly filings i dont think i would put him thru that.
if you want to PM me with any questions, feel free.
This is my first experience with this and I am a pet owner only. I have only had chins for about 4 years and I have honestly learned most of what I know from being on here.

 

[Claire D]

Having worked with many rescues and maloccluding chins over the years my philosophy is "rather a minute too soon than a second too late". I will not keep a chinchilla going on high pain relief, syringe feeds, and frequent dentals - it's just not fair on the chinchilla.
Having said that, every chinchilla is different and I will always give them a chance to live - if they have the spark then I fight for them. When they lose that spark or they stop being able to care for themselves (cleaning, eating some food by themselves, dusting etc) then it is time to reconsider. Loss of weight and an inability to eat anything other than syringe food also makes me reconsider.
Chinchillas hide pain to their detriment and only show it when they cannot physically do anything less. I will not keep a chin on high does pain relief or multiple pain killers for a prolonged period of time. Again, it is not fair on the chin - a dignified, peaceful ending is the most loving act of kindness to an animal in constant pain.

Sometimes a tiny spur can be missed and that can cause a chin to continue to refuse to eat, paw at their mouth etc. If you take the chin back to the vet or get a second opinion and nothing is found then there is a possibility that they have a low pain tolerance (I have seen this before in a few chins - teeny spurs can affect their ability to eat) and is it worth discussing re-examination or increased pain relief for a short while. As Peggy says, sometimes it can take a while for them to get used to the new bite after burring. Getting the Xrays reviewed by a specialist is also another option.

At the end of the day you have to go with your gut feeling, your knowledge of your chin's personality, and your vet's advice - you have to do what you feel comfortable with and that's not always easy.

I wish you all the best with your chin - please do keep us updated. :crossfingers:

 

[ChilliPepper]

He eats his pellets, in fact after play time last night, he actually grabbed them from me as I was feeding him. I will keep the pain meds up for a bit, I think we don't need them in the am after all, as long as I get in there when he first wakes up. Peggy could be right that he just needed a bit more time. I am going to try reducing how much we give him at night too. This is why it is so hard- He acts fine- he never showed any drooling, pawing at the mouth etc. The only thing that clued me in was that he started throwing his food on the ground and then chewing very gingerly- turned out he had a loose tooth.
I know that I took over a month and a half to heal from a tooth extraction, so I am going to wait it out a couple more weeks, slowly reducing his meds.
Thank you all for your input. I will continue to work with the vet too and get her opinion. I just thought it was too soon to put him under again. I want to wait a few more weeks if possible.
We did very little handfeeding with critical care, the vet really wanted him to chew. We watched his weight and supplemented once a day with about 5 ml until he started to really gain on his own. He is 625 as of last night, his weight at the beg. of August was 628. I don't know how much he lost at that point. I am weighing every other day, so I don't stress him so much with being caught.
Gotta love my boy though- he is such a trooper.
Here he is with his drugs. My little addict. Now he won't let go of the syringe, lol, after fighting it so much at the beginning.

 

[Claire D]

That is a precious photo - one to treasure. :heart:

If he had a loose tooth did the vet remove it?
No wonder he was sore poor lad - if the tooth has been removed then you are absolutely right and it will take time for him to heal. Also there's the risk of food getting stuck in the hole and of the opposing tooth growing long because of the gap (there's nothing to grind the tooth down since the opposing tooth is missing) so that's worth keeping a close eye on with your vet too.

Sorry to ask so many questions ............
Did he have a broken tooth or was it just loose in the socket? Does the vet know why? Is there any underlying infection below the gumline or in the bone?

 

[ChilliPepper]

Poor guy, the tooth actually fell out during the first exam, and she filed two other teeth. Then three weeks later, he was dropping weight again and we went back. They filed 3 other teeth that had not needed it the first time, did x rays and he just has bad teeth. They also found new ulcerations, that they assume were from spurs that had been covered until the swelling in his mouth receded some. The one that grows the wrong direction should be able to be managed with occasional filing. He also has bone loss on one of the upper back molars, so he will probably lose that one too. I have started giving him a chew on a cuttle bone as reccomended by another forum that I visit. He gets a little bit of it to increase his calcium intake. Just a bit though.
I am thinking I will have another year, max with my boy, but I wasn't ready to let him go without a good fight. He is only 5.

 

[Claire D]

It is terribly sad when chins develop dental problems - my heart really does go out to you both.

I hope he improves for you but I have to say that's a lot of dental problems for one chin to cope with. My advice? It would be to simply take each day as it comes and enjoy your time with him: be it 3 weeks, 3 months, 12 months+
Keep asking yourself whether he has quality of life, discuss everything with your vet, get a second opinion if you think that's necessary and monitor your furry friend closely, keep coming here for support from fellow chin lovers - you will know when it is time to say "goodbye".

I wish you both all the very best.