very confused Help!

[karnage75]

I found this site http://www.chincare.com/HealthLifestyle/RelatingBonding.htm#handsonapproach
and everything in it seems to be the total opposite that I have read here.
I'm really confused

 

[JennyBug]

Think about it: when chinchillas in the wild were held by something, they were likely being eaten. Instinct is hard to overcome, and with such a fragile animal, it is not wise to handle one that is high strung if you are not experienced. While a "hands-on" approachmight work for those who are more experienced, it is likely you would end up hurting your chin if you insist on handling him too soon (remember, their ribs are about the thickness of toothpicks, so holding one super tight is VERY hazardous).

My advice, and mind you I'm no expert, is to make time to talk to your chin. Our chins are in our office, so whenever we are in there, we talk to them. Even if you take a book in there and read to them, it will get them used to you. Chins aren't dumb - they will recognize your voice and your smell. If they associate you with a calm environment and food, you will begin to gain their trust. One of the easiest ways to get a chin curious about you is to sit on the floor with them in their safe room and read a book. Even the most timid chin seems to eventually hop in your lap to check out what you're doing.

My point is there is a way to be hands-on without being "hands-on". Spending time just sitting and talking to your chin or sharing their play space without grabbing at them will help them to trust you soon enough.

Once again, I'm not an expert, but I have five chin girls who love to be petted and scratched and tolerate being handled, so I must have done something right

 

[Jazicat]

I am newer too but I don't think forcing any animal to bond works. If they start to fear you than you start off at the beginning or worse.

If you wait until your chinchilla is curious about you and wants to sniff and nibble you than a true bond can be made. Take the time to sit by the cage and just let them get to know you. If they come to the bars see if they will sniff you. Once they are curious about you than you are on your way to a great relationship.

 

[tunes]

I can pretty much bet that won't be the only thing that this site and people on it disagrees with Chincare.com on. I personally disagree with quite a few things on there.

I've given the same advice to people many times in regards to bonding with their chins. I've yet to have someone tell me that it didn't work. Sit by the cage and read to them, take it slow, allow them to come to you. Any relationship, whether it's between two humans or a human and an animal, should occur naturally not through force. What we love most about chins is their independent natures, how much fun it is to watch them being chins. I don't care if they are "abused, high strung, sensitive" or whatever moniker you want to hang on them. It's why I don't recommend the smoosh method to people, after long consideration. I just think it's wrong to force it to that degree.

Many people on this site (not just a static website with no exchange of information or ideas) will tell you that forcing a chin to do anything does not work. I've had many chins come through here from ranches, some were down right vicious and nasty, biting, spraying, etc. I didn't force them to do anything. I worked with them and cared for them, and they came around. I have one animal here, out of almost 300, who is a pain in the butt. I think that's pretty good odds.

There's a lot of self-important babble on that site. "Only WE know how to do this, and only WE know how to do that." Of course that's true, because since the beginning of time, that has been the only site that has ever cared about chinchillas. On a forum such as this, you get a lot of different ideas, from breeders and rescues, pet owners and ranchers. You get a broad spectrum of input, which is the way it should be, rather than digs and innuendos at people and forums that cannot or will not do the same.

 

[Claire D]

Ok, I know this is going to sound like a cop-out (because I should post a long reply really ) but I'm going to wholeheartedly agree with Peggy's post.

Forcing a prey animal into a situation where it is held against it's will is stressful - it's like being pinned down by a predator - compliance is achieved when the chin effectively "gives up" the struggle - that's not the same as a bond or true non-threatening relationship with your chin.

Take your time and allow the chin to come to you - it's much more rewarding knowing that a chin is interacting with you because it wants to rather than because it is "given up" or has been forced into it.

 

[menagerie]

I've been involved in rodent rescue for the past 8 years, chins for the last 4 years. Many of the animals we get come from abused backgrounds and the last thing I would do is forced socialization. By forcing an animal to become what it is not capable of, you are asking for injuries to yourself and/or to the animal. It's best to put in the time and work slowly. Get the animal used to being in a new environment and used to the fact that you are not going to hurt them. We put in the time to learn the particular idiosyncrasies of each animal and work around their individual comfort level. Why would you stress out an animal? What is to be gained by holding an animal that is so stressed it's shaking out of fear?

Animals, like people, have many different personalities and levels of feeling comfortable being held. If you are a person who hates to be touched or hugged, how would you feel if a co-worker or family member constantly touched or hugged you?

If you put in the time, most animals will come around and at least interact with you. They may never be comfortable being held for long periods of time. As a caretaker, it is your job to modify the way you interact with the animals not to make them something that they are not. I've had rats with behavior problems that have never stopped their unwanted behaviors, I just learned to work around them so that both of us were safe while I needed to clean cages, feed, etc.

 

[NOLA Chins]

I handle our chins from day one. I sit and talk to them, put my hand in the cage, etc., but I also catch and pick them up. I hold them while they calm down- I don't see it as giving up. They quickly learn that they won't be eaten and each time is easier. Picked up and... playtime! Picked up and... bath time! Pretty soon it's me, me, ME!

This is not for all chins, but I rarely see a chin as delicate as many mentioned here are. I want a relationship of trust, but there are different ways of building it. I think you are teaching a chin something all the time. Your only choice is what you wish to teach it.

 

[karnage75]

Thanks everyone, I wanted input because it seemed odd that it was so different from everything else i have read and do not want to make any mistakes.

 

[Claire D]

Just because forcing a chin to be held works does not mean it is the best interest of the chin - watch a chin that is frightened get held against it's will and you will see it panic, struggle like **** and then go limp. It is a natural defence mechanism and it is characterised by "giving up". It's like beating a dog into submission rather than using kindness - same end result (obedience in the case of the dog) but with no trust or affection.

As I have said before: Just because you can does not mean you should.

 

[menagerie]

Just because forcing a chin to be held works does not mean it is the best interest of the chin - watch a chin that is frightened get held against it's will and you will see it panic, struggle like **** and then go limp. It is a natural defence mechanism and it is characterised by "giving up". It's like beating a dog into submission rather than using kindness - same end result (obedience in the case of the dog) but with no trust or affection.

As I have said before: Just because you can does not mean you should.

I totally agree.

 

[NOLA Chins]

>watch a chin that is frightened get held against it's will

Yes and you can also see them calm down and relax and start trusting you, too.

 

[Eric4144]

OK ummm.... I'm not sure what to say about all of this. I don't think picking your chin up and getting him used to being handled is abuse. I think that might be taking it a bit to far. I pick Hercules up everyday and everyday he gets more comfortable with being held some days he hops into my hands to go to playtime. Then other days he pushes me away and I have to pick him up. Keep in mind it wasn't very long ago that I couldn't even stick my hand in the cage without him freaking out and biting me and running all over the place. I wouldn't even be trying to pick him up. Everyone on here told me to keep handling him so I did. Now he is a much calmer, friendlier well adjusted chin. He will readily groom anyone that sticks their hand in his cage now. Who decided this was abuse? If this is where the band wagon is going I guess I'll be getting off now. Sometimes things need to be measured with a healthy dose of common sense. Chinchillas seem to come to understand that you aren't going to eat them fairly quickly. In the wild they are grabbed and then almost immediately comes death. Not the same thing here. They don't go limp they just stop squirming once their feet have something solid to rest on. Like your hand or chest. I guess if you feel like you are abusing your chinchilla by picking it up then don't but I whole heartedly have to disagree and like I said before this is my stop so I'll be getting off now. Thanks

 

[Claire D]

Who said picking up a chin was abuse? You are misinterpreting what has been written.
If you are talking about the analogy of training a dog then you are taking the analogy far too literally.

Like Peggy, I have yet to fail to bring a chin around - in over 13 years of working with these wonderful, intelligent animals I have seen a whole gamut of temperaments and characters - rescues, pets, breeders ..... Not one chin has needed to be forced. In fact I have seen experienced people who have held chins against their will and the chins have bitten, screamed, freaked out, and become too skittish to handle. It can take months or years to undo the "harm" that this kind of "bonding" causes.
No UK rescue forces chins to be held - they all work with the chins are their pace and build up relationships and trust with the animals.

 

[Eric4144]

It seems that everyone is taking the chincare.com article out of context as well. All it suggests is initiating contact to show the animal you are not going to eat it. That's pretty much the sum of its parts. That my friends is not the same as beating a dog into submission or making a chinchilla be held till it passes out with fear. If I've read to far into that analogy then I'm afraid the article was completely shot right on past. Anyway onto the topic, if the OP doesn't feel that holding his/her chin is abuse then perhaps you should offer a treat of some sort when you do this to create a positive experience for it. Then it will associate you w/ good feelings after some time and want mind being held and will understand you don't want to eat it. They're pretty smart little creatures.

 

[tunes]

I'm not sure what to say about all of this. I don't think picking your chin up and getting him used to being handled is abuse. I think that might be taking it a bit to far. I pick Hercules up everyday and everyday he gets more comfortable with being held some days he hops into my hands to go to playtime.

I think there's a difference between picking up a chin who knows you and knows you won't hurt it and "forcing" a bond on a rescue chin, or any chin for that matter. What good does it do to educate people that chins are not clutchy, huggy pets, that they overheat easily, and that they don't like it - then turn around and get offended because you disagree with someone who says to do exactly that?

The same people who would scream that the smoosh method is cruel, are the same people advocating forcing yourself on a chin. What is different here? You are still doing something that you know the chin wants no part of, because why? You're bigger, therefore, you can?

If you click on a few of the highlighted comments on Chincare, and read the "behind the article" comments, you'll see where this is coming from, i.e., a breeder can't possibly know how to tame a vicious, wild, killer chinchilla beast monster, because we have never come across one. Really? So, those rescues that I took in that were left in a cardboard box in the rain outside of the humane society all night were all tamed up and ready to go? The chin that I drove 9 hours each way to pick up, with a leg dangling from her body, who had to have it amputed about 15 minutes after meeting me, abused and filled with infection was all tamed up and ready to go?

You don't get to throw a blanket over every breeder and say that they don't know what they are talking about because they aren't sainted rescues (and that's not an insult to rescues, just rescues who might be a little full of themselves). Almost every hobbyist I know rescues chins, we just don't feel the need to discuss it every time we take a chin in. That's nobody's business but our own. But just because we don't discuss every nuance of every needy animal we've ever taken in, doesn't mean we don't know what we're doing.

I'd love to know how many deaf/blind chins have been "forced" tamed into wonderful pets. Why don't you ask Nikki about Beep some time and see what she thinks of the animal that I, the uninformed breeder, was able to tame without forcing him to do a single thing.

 

[AZChins]

I agree, you can't force a chin to do anything without disastrous consequences. I let them decide when it's time for me to start holding them and always give them adequate time to adjust and be calm. Treat them with patience, gentleness and kindness and you get way more in return for your effort. I do admit that I have told people to hold their chins as much as possible to get the chins used to it...but that's AFTER the chin trusts humans. A scared to death chin needs to be left alone so the poor little fuzzy can adjust and learn that nothing is going to cause him any harm...you know?

Anything you read online needs to be carefully considered. Personal feelings aside, this website that was referenced needs to be scrutinized just as carefully as what anyone says on this site or any other. I've been questioned and been told I am wrong about things, big deal...it's better that someone question things rather than blindly follow what is said on one site.

 

[Stackie]

I would never forcefully hold a chin against it's will. I have had the most success with letting chins decide on THEIR own terms. I took in a rescue that was scared to death of anything and everything that moved. His previous owners would strap a harness on him and drag him around.

He would run frantically anytime he saw me come in the room and hide. Sometimes just the sight of me would send him into barking fits for hours...I'm not kidding, hours.

I let him come to me on his terms...I let him do everything on his terms. It took around 5 months, but he finally became calm enough to let me give him scritches and even pick him up. All I did was sit in the room with him. I sat across the room at first. I gradually moved closer, then moved to the point where I would sit with my hand in the cage with a treat. He would get closer and closer, then eventually one day, he took a treat out of my hand.

I don't think I ever would have achieved that by just grabbing him and forcing him to be held.

 

[Claire D]

It seems that everyone is taking the chincare.com article out of context as well. All it suggests is initiating contact to show the animal you are not going to eat it. That's pretty much the sum of its parts. That my friends is not the same as beating a dog into submission or making a chinchilla be held till it passes out with fear. If I've read to far into that analogy then I'm afraid the article was completely shot right on past.

*sigh* OK lets do this back and forth since you obviously want to defend Chincare ......
First, it's not being taken out of context at all.
The dog training analogy is actually congruent with much of what is written on Chincare regarding poor backgrounds from which chins have come for a start.


Second, there are assertions on the site which suggest that no-one but chincare have ever dealt with real cases or is suitable to give advice.

Typically, the people who give the most online advice are not the same people who spend hours every day working with high-strung, oversensitive or troubled chins, and that's why these chins are so often overlooked, misunderstood or dismissed as the exception.

Absolute rubbish.


Thirdly, much of what is written is anthropomorphic

"Just sit with you arm resting in the cage and wait for him to come to you" or "Ignore your new chin and let him settle in for the first few days, or a week or two" might sound ok to us because we're not a small, powerless animal of prey, trapped in a cage and yet exposed and vulnerable, dreading and expecting the worst, feeling alone, terrified, bewildered.

Taking a chinchilla which is nervous and forcing it to be held against it's will by a large animal is stressful - it's not being made to feel any less powerless and/or trapped by being restrained in human hands or arms.

No wonder people who read that article and the linked bits are confused.

 

[AZChins]

I deal with rescues every single day! I rehab them, I go through a lot getting them to be sweet. So... Forcing a new chin to be held right away? NO!

I'm good at this, I've been doing it for a long time. I can tell you exactly what will work and what will not work. I can also tell you what will make having a chinchilla a miserable experience. Completely breaking the chin's trust and then repeatedly breaking it every day is a bad thing. That's what makes the chins become rescues and it is why I am going to hit 500 PET rescues in less than five years.

 

[Eric4144]

OK I do agree with most of what everyone is saying but I honestly don't see where picking up a chinchilla after it is gentled to you is abusive. (Common sense tells you not to handle any hysterical animal) We can go back and forth on this. I'm not in this to defend Chincare.com either there is a lot of things on their site that I think is a bit overboard myself along with a lot of what info is offered pretty much all over the net. I'm just trying to say you can't just wait and hope for the best all the time. Things need to be initiated. Hercules hates to be picked up initially but once I get it over with he's fine and begins grooming me. I prefer him to hop into my hands but when he doesn't want to and I have time to give him free time he's getting it. Even if that means picking him up. He settles quickly is curious of me and what's going on and exhibits NO fear of being handled. He doesn't panic and freak out he excepts it and probably will never like being picked up but lets face it none of us have time to wait all day for their chin to hop onto their hand to be taken out of the cage or to be put back in it. If your chin is freaking out though common sense will tell you that he needs TLC and coaxing to trust that time after time you are not going to eat him. Don't read this as me saying scare the **** out of your pet b/c you don't have time for it either. So in point I agree hysterical timid chins need TLC but once you get them calm there is absolutely nothing wrong with picking them up to get used to being handled. If it happens day one or a year down the road. If you have a fairly well adjusted chin it isn't going to stress them to offer your arm with a treat day one. But if you have a chin that freaks so bad his fight instinct kicks in then by all means back off just like you would any other animal but you have to keep being the initiator of the contact. Gentling animals is hands on there is no way around that. I think perhaps we do all agree on this to some extent or another some how it got lost in translation. Also tunes and anyone else that thought that I was offended I was not in the least. I haven't said anything about breeders or rescues which ever you choose to do that's great. I love both as long as they're ethical and have the animals' best interest at heart. Perhaps I misunderstood but it came across to me that everyone was telling the OP to never pick their chin up b/c it was abusive b/c they don't like it and you have to wait till they hop into your hands. I just can't agree with that. I have nothing against breeders or rescues and have never said anything of the sort and don't know where that came from. I have said breeding isn't for me but that's me and my reasons are personal to me. I'm not imposing that on anyone. Really where did that come from? I'm lost. I haven't taken anything personally but I think some things that I said may have been some how and misunderstood. I think maybe I misunderstood what everyone else was trying to say as well. (Tunes I think you might have been talking about what chincare's opinion of breeders is. I'm not sure but I hope so b/c I have NO PROBLEM with ethical breeding I really hope everyone understands that.) Everyone sorry for the misunderstandings.
To clarify things up a bit for myself and the OP
1) Gentle the chin to its surroundings and you first. (sometimes ok on day one sometimes not depends on chin)
2)DO NOT force a terrified, hysterical chin to be handled
3)It is OK to pick up a chin once he realizes you aren't going to eat him to get used to being handled. (I think some of us agree to this more or less than others)
4) You are the initiator of contact whether it's getting the chin to be comfortable around or moving on to getting the chin used to being handled. This also greatly depends on your chin and his disposition on how this can go about. If he is going to freak out and be hysterical DO NOT PICK HIM UP.
5)ALWAYS use common sense when handling animals
Does everyone more or less agree to most of this? If so I think we all in a general sense have the same sentiments