The most confused I have ever been. Please help.

[Marcham93]

Hi everyone,

I'm an animal lover at heart and have dealt with many animals in the past (and present), mainly parrots. Upon entering the chinchilla world, I have to say that I have never been so confused in my life. I feel that there is almost no straight answer to many questions because everyone has a different opinion/thought.

I'm going to give you a few examples.

My chin is served a pellet diet and fresh timothy hay at all times to keep him healthy and satisfied.

The arguments appear when I start talking about treats. Let's give for example, the raisin. I have heard multiple arguments for and against these dried little fruits. I have been told by many that they are good in moderation and chins enjoy them; in addition they can help with constipation if needed. On the other hand I have been told that they are dangerous and not to give chins any. I'm not sure if this is a "parent" being overprotective or if raisins are truly bad.

Moving on... plastic. I'm sure we have all heard this before. When I purchased my chinchilla's cage I purchased one that has plastic shelving and plastic ramps. This seems to be the biggest argument of them all... many people seem up in arms that plastic is evil and that any plastic in a cage will lead to death. On the other hand, I have talked to experts (and yes, actual experts, not pet store $7 an hour employees) who have said that plastic can be fine. They said plastic is fine to have in the cage as long as other chewing materials are provided for the chin. That in most cases a chin won't chew the plastic and even if it does a bit, they don't swallow it. I've been told the idea of a chin choking on plastic is more in the realm of "freak accident".

Treats and plastic are the too top concerns, but everywhere I turn I hear something... this bedding is toxic, those treats are horrible, etc. etc.

My confusion with most of this is wondering if these concerns are "over concerned parents". For example, with my Quaker parrot I try not to feed him sun flower seeds or peanuts as they are high in fat... that being said, he does get them once in a while for a treat.

So what's the deal? Can my chin have a raisin from time to time? Is plastic alright as long as I monitor my chin and make sure wood chews are provided?

In the end, I am an animal lover and want to do what is best. The confusion with chins just seems to be higher than any other animal community I have encountered before.

:banghead:

 

[Chinmama]

Raisins are known to cause acute renal failure in dogs. I don't think the occasional raisin will kill a chinchilla, but it isn't something I would feed mine on a regular basis. Treats aren't something chinchillas have to have. It's fun to give them treats, but like with myself and with my dogs, I try to make sure I am offering them what I believe to be healthier choices.

As far as plastic goes, as long as your chinchilla isn't chewing it, it likely will be okay to leave in his cage. However, if he decides to chew it overnight and you wake up to find chewed plastic and a chinchilla with an impaction, it can end up being pretty costly or even deadly for your chinchilla. Most people prefer to not take the risk and just replace everything with wood.

Really it just boils down to you. Other chinchilla owners can make suggestions or give advice but you are the owner and you make the final call.

 

[Idgie]

I don't give my chin raisins. I do like to give a little treat every day, but there are enough to choose from that are healthy. My chin loves oat groats, rosehips, and old fashioned rolled oats. I figure, why risk it and give her something that can be harmful when I can just give her something else.

My cage never had any plastic in it, so I certainly wouldn't choose to put any in. Again, why risk it? Chins chew everything, as they should. My chin started one day trying to chew her Water Buddy after it had been on her cage for a year. So I had to buy a guard to block her. And she gets plenty of wood, apple sticks, and stones to chew. You just never know.

 

[Dreamlite]

Any dried fruit contains sugar which is not the most healthy for them. If you tried to live off a pure sugar diet before long you would have issues. Same is true with chins. They are not made to process sugars but in very small infequent amounts probably won't hurt them. As far as plastic, I have never met a chin hat doesn't chew it. They are rodents, chewing is what they do. Impactions are not horribly fequent but if you can avoid possibly killing your chins why not remove it? Its better safe than sorry and its not a hard thing to adjust in most cages.

 

[Godofgods]

the sugar in raisins (or most any dried fruit) is not good for them. Can lead to some serious health problems. If your looking to a treat thats good for them, and can be given more often, id suggest looking at the ppl on here that sell twigs. (Since they have to be properly grown and prepared for safety)

Plastic in itself technically is not harmful to chin. If they jump on it and come in contact, nothing bad should happen. However, if they chew or ingest it, then very bad things can happen. And a chin chewing is like a dog wagging its tail basically. Chins generally chew on everything. Its just what they do. So its a real good idea to make sure anything harmful for them to chew or ingest, is simply not accessible to them.

 

[3CsMommy]

If it helps on the treats front, think of their diet like this: they have the same basic gut structure as a horse. What happens to a horse fed too much sugar, or one that gets into the *entire* bag of sweet feed? Colic. So, the lower their sugar consumption over all, the healthier they'll be. What that means for us as keepers is being mindful of the sugar content in their diets, and that comes in some surprising places. (Check your pellets for molasses for example.) Since mine get a pellet stuck together with molasses, I don't feed fruit treats. Rose hips, absolutely, because the sugar content is markedly lower than a raisin or piece of papaya. Oats? Sure, occasionally. But these guys aren't like parrots which are designed to eat veggies, fruit, seeds, and nuts (in more or less that order); they're really the exact opposite. Will one raisin every month or a tiny sliver of dried apple kill your chin? It's not likely, but a long-term bad diet surely will.

Plastic is, in my mind, a waste of money with one possible exception: PVC is often too hard for a chin to chew up unless you have a very determined chinchilla. I use PVC pipes in my cages, but beyond that, why would you attempt to house or restrain them in something they can chew right through? There's no sense in it. You've seen what can happen when a moderate sized bird like a Caique or a small 'Too doesn't want to be in plastic right? (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...2112605469741.81474.1683807193&type=1&theater ) Chins will do that too. And yes, impaction *can* happen from chewed plastic, though it's not reported as commonly as it probably occurs, because people who listen to the pet stores expect a chin to die before they're 5 and never bother to look into why it passes. I'd rather avoid the plastic and have my chins for 15 healthy years.

 

[Marcham93]

I spoke to an emergency veterinarian with a doctoral degree in veterinary medicine and also a bachelors degree in physiology to get a professional opinion on the matter.

This was his response:

"I practice emergency medicine. I see dogs, cats and exotics/ small mammals."

"Most plastic cages for chinchillas and other exotics (ferrets, rabbits, guinea pigs) use a thick enough plastic that they cannot just chew pieces off and ingest. If you notice him chewing on the ramp/ shelves, then you should remove them. I have seen some obstructions (more often in ferrets), but never from eating part of the actual cage. "

"If you notice him chewing on the ramps/ shelves, then I would switch to all metal. I don't think that will be an issue though. We see chinchillas a lot that have combination cages like you are describing.

Have fun with him, let me know if you have any other questions."

The reason I decided to reach out to a vet was because despite everyone in the community saying plastic = danger and plastic = death , I can't find any solid or reliable medical sources stating so. So far all medically trained personnel I have spoke to seem to have the same conclusion as the vet above.

 

[Chinmama]

As I said before, you are the owner - you can take whatever advice you choose to. You come to a forum and ask a question, you'll get our honest opinions. You'll get differing opinions, and you have the freedom to choose to listen to whomever you'd like. You can ask different vets and you'll also get differing opinions from them.

Just because I choose to have wood in my cages over plastic doesn't mean I'm right or wrong. It's my opinion that plastic is unsafe for my chinchillas. I can share that with you, but I can't force you to not use plastic in your cage.

Same with raisins. When we got ZZ from his previous owners he was eating hard candy and chips and cookies as treats. We've had him for 9 years this year and estimate that he is between 10 and 12 years old. Clearly the crap food and treats he was eating in the early part of his life didn't kill him - but after reading and speaking with others who were more knowledgeable, we chose to no longer feed him that way.

After going to my vet, who is an exotics specialist, and having to show her how to do a hair ring check, I'm not sure I value her opinion over most people on this forum. She had no problem telling me that she sees mostly birds, guinea pigs, rabbits and other pocket pets and doesn't know much about chinchillas because she had only seen two in her practice of 20 years. Chinchillas are still pretty rare as pets, and fortunately rarely require vet care. As such, most vets just don't know that much about them.

 

[Dreamlite]

A thing to consider, how many chins die at home from eating plastic that never make it to the vet? How many people deside to euth before finding out if plastic is or isn't the cause of problems? Just because something is widely used doesn't make it safe. Smoking is widely done but has been clearly shown to have to potential t kill you. To me plastic is the same way. It may or it may not workout for you but its just not worth finding out to me. I don't trust many vets. I have a exotic specialist who thinks its normal to loose 1 in 5 animals to aneth cause they are exotics. I don't care if he has a degree if he thinks chins need leafy greens as a part of their diet. Be careful how much you trust any 1 vet or person. You have had several people give you similar answers so 1 vets reply means little to me.

 

[JoAnne]

Greetings,
I will try to keep it short, but just had to jump in here. I have raised chinchillas since 1964 and very sucessfully. We occasionally give a dried raisin, although we prefer dried cranberries to our chins. Because we have quite a large number it is an easy way to help them become gentle especially if we are going to show them or sell them as pets. When we purchased our $500.00 males they came with instructions to give them a raisin or two a day until we got them transitioned to the new feed and accustom to their new surrounding. Anyone that purchases animals from Ralph Shoots or his Granddaughter Brit will probably receive the same instructions. THEY ARE EXPERTS!!! and have been raising chinchllas for many years. I guarantee you that many more animals die from impaction that ever do from sugar (in the breeding community). Now I can't speak for hobby breeders because I have seen some really strange things fed to chinchillas that I would never give to one. I also know that some really innocent seeming treats are really deadly to some animals. Try reading about a dog that happens to get into Vanilla Wafers. We use all metal cages and have used PVC pipe as baby escapes in years past. The design on our current cage makes that unnecessary. I would agree with most that the chins will chew on anything and would suggest that you keep the plastic and even some types of wood away from them. Just a thought.

 

[AZChins]

JoAnne - there's a lot of ranchers that have given me the same instructions! I never had any of those chins get sick, I'd rather give them the raisins than have them go into shock over stress. I've used PVC pipes with chins before and never had a problem. Generally plastic things aren't as fun to chew on as the chins' wood and toys and hay cubes. They may chew on them a bit and then give up. (Anything plastic that a chin appears to be chewing on or eating, needs to be removed.)

 

[Stackie]

As far as the plastic debate, I am an owner who has personally dealt with a chin ingesting plastic and almost dying. I had the plastic pans covered up with fleece, but as inquisitive and mischievous as chins are, he obviously found a way to rip the fleece and get to the pan. He chewed a sizable amount, all within one night and suffered from a partial impaction as well as sustained scar tissue from the plastic shards. Mind you, he had this plastic pan in his cage for over a year and not once touched it. He just decided one night that he wanted to try it.

I hadn't realized he had chewed the plastic until I found him one morning acting very off, not interested in food and not pooping. He was taken to the vet and put on medications, and after not improving, got x-rays. Here is one of them, you can see a sharp piece of plastic outlined in the poorly drawn red circle and a smaller, more easily seen circular piece further down the GI tract. There were numerous other pieces that didn't show up in the picture because I used my phone to take pictures of the x-rays.

It took days of handfeeding, sub-Q fluids, motility drugs, etc. etc. for him to pull through. You can read the entire thread on it here:
http://chins-n-hedgies.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13431&highlight=smudge+x-rays

So, obviously, I have absolutely NO plastic in any of my cages- bare, covered up, or otherwise. It just isn't worth the risk. I almost lost Smudge and to this day he has GI problems from scar tissue caused by the plastic shards in his intestines.

As far as trusting vets on their knowledge, I trust breeders/long time owners over vets. I myself am a vet tech who works in a clinic who sees exotics. Vets have very limited information to turn to when researching chins. There just isn't a lot out there and what is, is outdated and based more off the care of guinea pigs and rabbits who have different dietary requirements than chins. My chins get the very occasional rose hip and oats and apple twigs for treats, and that's it. I have had one develop bloat after getting a small piece of goji berry. Their digestive systems are so finicky that even the introduction of a new food can throw it into an upset.

 

[Marcham93]

Thank you all for you feedback and responses.

Please do not misunderstand my intentions by speaking to a vet. I am taking what everyone here says into serious consideration.

Please see it from my point of view - lots of complaints about plastic, but no medical documentation or sources to back it up and when I do speak to a PhD they say plastic is fine for the most part.

It's just confusion and I try to get as many view points as I can.

 

[Marcham93]

I've decided everyone here is right. Why take the chance?

Thank you guys for all your help. I'm sure you can imagine my confusion when vets/experts are telling me one thing and owners are telling me another.

I'll stop feeding Gizmo any raisins since they seem to be up for so much debate. I'm going to check out many of the online chin stores that forum members here seem to run for healthy treats. In the current time I will continue to give the Kaytee Timothy Biscuits to Gizmo unless anyone sees something wrong with them (I've always trusted Kaytee and these treats seem fine to me as they are simply timothy hay with apple pieces).

On the subject of plastic...

I just read your experience, Stackie, and it does sound frightening and stressful.

I'd prefer not to drop another $200 on a chin cage (unless I really have to). Can I just replace the shelves and ramps with wood equivalents? If so, where can I find or purchase wood shelves and ramps? Also, the pan on the bottom of my cage is plastic. Will this be a problem or can I keep that?

Once again... thank you all. :hug2:

 

[Chinmama]

You can remove the plastic shelves and make your own from wood. Here is a link to the DIY another member posted: http://www.chins-n-hedgies.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9311.

 

[becky12883]

Your chin should not have any fruits or vegetables, so those treats are out. Unfortunately Kaytee is not trustworthy when it comes to chins, most of what they market as safe is junk. Old fashioned oats are the only store bought treat that my boys get. They think getting an apple stick to chew on is a treat. I've gotten treats from people on here, and made my own hay cookies.

As far as the cage goes, making shelves is pretty simple. If you go to Home Depot they will cut a board up to 6 times for you, just make sure you get something from the safe wood list (kiln dried or KD pine is the cheapest and easiest to find). Chins don't need ramps at all, they will jump from ledge to ledge. Check out the diy section for hammocks and tunnels too. When you start customizing your cage it can be a lot of fun and you will surely get carried away like the rest of us! lol There's tons of pictures in the housing section to give you more ideas if you need them.

 

[Marcham93]

Thank you for all the help (especially you, Ann and Susan)!

Sorry for being a bit chary...

There were just so many sources saying different information which has made it very confusing. Also a few of you own stores and I want to make sure I wasn't being tricked into buying something I didn't need. =/

But, THANK YOU once again! I spoke to the pet shop where I purchased my chin and they are going to refund me the total for the cage I purchased. I see a few cages on amazon that I might purchase.

What do you think about this one?

http://www.amazon.com/Prevue-Produc...id=1363742558&sr=8-3&keywords=chinchilla+cage

Also.. I am going to purchase some healthy treats from AZChins or from ChinchillaCity (I have to compare prices). In the mean time... what are good "pet store" treats? I noticed that those sites both list a few treats that I've seen in store (especially the stuff from OxBow).

Last Note: I'm going to go pick up some new stuff since the Amazon.com cage doesn't come up with bowls or a running wheel. What should I watch out for when purchasing these two items? What about toys.. I see tons of toys... anything I should look out for when purchasing? I just bought Gizmo a new toy and he loves it (it's wood blocks and a bell on a chain), but I want to make sure it's okay.

Thanks again, love you all. <3

 

[becky12883]

Check out http://www.ferret.com/cages/209/ or http://www.petsupplies.com/ferret-supplies/cages-and-accessories/9133/ they both have pretty good sales on the Ferret Nation cages right now. The FN's are supposed to be the best. I'm patiently waiting for the day I can buy one! For a wheel the chin spin, silver surfer or flying saucer are the best. I had a saucer for my boys, but they never used it so I sold it. If you post in the classified you may be able to find a used one for cheap. You can also check out craigslist for both cages and wheels. You might have to scrub them up a bit but if you're lucky you might find one for half price. For bowls I use coconut shells and ceramic crocks. There aren't really any safe pet store treats except the apple twigs. Generally most toys that are safe for bird will be safe for chins.

Remember we were all in your place at some point. Everyone here cares very much about these critters and can sometimes come off as a bit harsh, but really we're just trying to help.

 

[Stackie]

The cage that you linked to has extremely thin and flemsy bars that could easily be broken. The FNs are good ones, you could get one level and add on later if you wish.

As far as treats you can buy in stores, either old fashioned oats, plain cherrios, and unfrosted shredded wheat are okay treats.

 

[Marcham93]

Check out http://www.ferret.com/cages/209/ or http://www.petsupplies.com/ferret-supplies/cages-and-accessories/9133/ they both have pretty good sales on the Ferret Nation cages right now. The FN's are supposed to be the best. I'm patiently waiting for the day I can buy one! For a wheel the chin spin, silver surfer or flying saucer are the best. I had a saucer for my boys, but they never used it so I sold it. If you post in the classified you may be able to find a used one for cheap. You can also check out craigslist for both cages and wheels. You might have to scrub them up a bit but if you're lucky you might find one for half price. For bowls I use coconut shells and ceramic crocks. There aren't really any safe pet store treats except the apple twigs. Generally most toys that are safe for bird will be safe for chins.

Remember we were all in your place at some point. Everyone here cares very much about these critters and can sometimes come off as a bit harsh, but really we're just trying to help.

Thanks! I think I might go with this one (I assume Critter Nation is made by FN): http://www.ferret.com/item/critter-nation-small-animal-cage-single-unit/650231/

Since it comes with nothing I'll have to grab a ceramic bowl, running wheel, and hammock (The oringals are going back with the plastic cage).

I already purchased a "cave" and mat made from Timothy hay at the pet shop; I assume they are okay.

I also already have: A water bottle (plastic but on the outside of the cage), a wooden toy, and a plastic bathing house (but that doesn't stay in the cage of course).

Any other suggestions? I should probably pick up a sleeping ledge since that CN cage comes with less area (The plastic cage I have is actually three floors).

The cage that you linked to has extremely thin and flemsy bars that could easily be broken. The FNs are good ones, you could get one level and add on later if you wish.

As far as treats you can buy in stores, either old fashioned oats, plain cherrios, and unfrosted shredded wheat are okay treats.

Thanks Stackie! I'm looking at one of the other cages (see link above).

----------

I don't understand why chin care is so "scattered". It is never this bad with parrot care... do vets/stores/manufacturers not know much about chins?

I mean wow, there is stuff that is "not the best" for my parrot sold in stores, but I've never seen so many pet accessories and treats that were labeled as good when they are truly "horrible" or "deadly". :wacko: