teeth issues

[WhiteTree]

I haven't been on here for awhile. I have a three year old that started drooling in July, I took him to Dr. Goode and she filed his teeth down, she said it was just the left side and only a few points.

Everything was fine, then Saturday 9/17 I noticed he was drooling alittle. He didn't seem to want to eat so I started syringe feeding critical care, he ate willingly with little effort on my part. I called the vet and the first appointment they had was thursday, so I syringe feed him several times a day all week, he ate about 20mls each feeding. By the time thursday came his chest was stained from the drool but still willingly eating from the syringe and playing. On friday his teeth were filed down, this time it was still the left side but there were more points.

I took him home and he seemed fine, but I've noticed a little bit of drool on the one side and he's not eating out of his dish, so we're syringe feeding critical care. He actually waits at the bars and stares at me when he's hungry and I get the syringe and he eats like an angel. I called the vet today, she was off but called me.

She called in butorphanol for me and told me to text her if I need anything. I'm giving him butorphanol three times a day until he's eating on his own. He's still alert and happy. She said he'll need to come in every two months maybe even sooner for filings. I'm willing to do this, I'm graduating as a vet tech this semester so hopefully I'll be working at an office capable of doing his filings to save money.

My question is since I've read a good deal of literature saying Malo is fatal, what can I do to help him, how long does he have, what do I need to look for and anything else you can think of that might help me to know. They don't teach us about malo in school and you can't believe everything you read online. I'm worried about my boy and I'm also worried that if we lose him his cagemate might go next (his cagemate is an old man with a heart murmur who loves him unconditionally, I'm afraid it could be like what you see in old couples the spouse dies and the other one goes shortly after).

Any advice is appreciated, thankfully I have a good vet and she's dedicated to helping him, my number is in her phone under his name and she spent the whole day texting me. There was a mishap at the pharmacy that could have proved fatal if she hadn't sent me a frantic text telling me not to give the medicine, it was too high a concentration. I just lost my job and he goes and gets worse, she thought the first bout was a one time occurrence since it was only one side. I'm sorry for the novel length thread I'm just at a loss as to what the next step is other than continued filings and syringe feeding if he won't eat.

 

[Laurie]

Malo is fatal. There is no way to tell how long he has, many owners who have chins with malo will gauge the time by how often he can go without filings. Eventually he will have to be put to sleep to ease his suffering. Dawn has said many times as long as he still enjoys the things he likes--treats, jumping, his wheel and such then he is fine--when he starts not to enjoy the things he loves anymore he is most likely suffering.

 

[Dolyphinm]

Currently he doesn't want to eat though cuz of the filing. His mouth is in a lot of pain from the procedure. I got lucky with my girl she had 2 filings a year apart and has been good ever since. After each filing she wouldn't really eat on her own for a few days up to a week or so.

It's possible she didn't get them filed down all the way during the first filing so those points still there but then cause more points. Fingers crossed for you it doesn't have to stay every 2 months for filing.

I think some members have had molars removed from chins and just have to hand feed now daily for the life of the chin but I cannot remember if that happened specifically from malo or if other things happened that cause tooth damage.

Good Luck.

 

[Claire D]

Has your little chap had xrays to check for root elongation or divergence, abscess, osteomyelitis etc etc? If not then the vet has not done a full dental exam - you need to know what is happening below the gum line to determine the way forward.

There are some people who believe that malocclusion can be cured by dietary changes but I have yet to see any real evidence for that except for anecdotal stories - the stories are usually fairly short term too. As Laurie says, malocclusion (which covers a multitude of dental conditions in chinchillas) is not curable in the long term: it is manageable until the point at which the kindest option is to put the chinchilla to sleep - to give them a peaceful, pain-free, & dignified ending.

It can take time for a chin to recover from a dental, especially if burring has been done - the mouth with possibly be sore from the procedure, the teeth/bite will feel 'odd' as it is now altered, & sometimes tiny spurs can be missed or inflammation of the soft tissue can take time to resolve.
It may be worth asking your vet to prescribe Metacam for it's anti-inflammatory & analgesic effects - it is successfully used as a stand-alone pain relief & as an adjunct to Vetergesic. I know Dawn has used Tramadol successfully in the past too.

I've know it take up to 2 weeks to get a chin back to trying to eat on their own after a dental - each chin is different, has different pain thresholds, & tolerates dentals differently. It's only a few days after his dental so I would want to discuss adding in Metacam to see if that helps. I'd also ask about the condition of the soft tissue of his mouth to see if there were any ulcers etc which could affect his eating.


As for timescales - again, I am afraid every chin is different. My motto is: rather a minute too soon than a second too late - I would rather put a chin to sleep before it is skeletal & has lost the spark in it's eyes - I believe it is the kindest, most loving thing one can do for a beloved pet.
You know your chin better than anybody & if you think he does not have quality of life between dental procedures & is not recovering well then that is the time to consider your options - having said that, as I said above, you really do need to know what is happening below the gum line in order to make a more informed decision.

Good luck & please do keep us posted.

 

[ticklechin]

If you are going to use long term pain management, the use of famotidine is needed for the prevention of gastric ulcers. I use metecam and tramadol for pain management, the butorphanol is IMO too heavy duty for this situation and it also can cause nausea and lethargy. You need x-rays-this chin is young and you need to know what is going on intraorally since elongation of the roots is a real possibility due to the age.

 

[WhiteTree]

I told the vet he's still drooling and she has me bringing him in tomorrow free of charge to recheck if she missed any points. But just a minute ago he went to the food dish for the first time and started eating his normal food so that's great. The butorphanol is just until he starts eating on his own so I'll use it for another day or so then stop it. I think she prescribe it for the pain relief and because it's an appetite stimulant in rodents.

I'll ask her tomorrow about xrays, she doesn't think the roots are involved in this, and she said there were no ulcers in the mouth. I was thinking if the problem keeps occurring I would ask her if she could remove the problem teeth and I'll hand feed.

He's so young I refuse to give up on him while he's still being his normal self. He's moody, fussy, cranky, lazy, and stubborn but I love him. I'm going to pray that she simply missed a tooth point last time, since it's still just the left side. I'll see about xrays to check the roots. They all go for their 6 month exam in december. I take all four chinchillas and the dog all at once every 6 months.

Worse comes to worse I'll look into removing the teeth and hand feeding as long as he's happy like that, he doesn't seem to mind the syringe feedings. He's very bossy so I think demanding I stop what I'm doing to feed him at his discretion suits him well. I've learned to keep a syringe of critical care on me at all times, he's trained me well. I'll let you know what the vet says and if we get xrays what they show.

 

[ticklechin]

Unless every cheek tooth is removed, removal does not work, trust me I did it. The chinchilla tooth is not achored in bone, when a tooth is removed the adjacent teeth will move rapidly to fill in the space, this causes tipping and the occlusal plane is disrupted.

Second point, elongation can be silent when malocclusion is not involved. You need a x-ray to to get a complete picture of the chinchillas oral condition. There are many other things that can cause oral symptoms that are not malo related.


Third point, this from someone that has hand fed just about 24/7/365 for 10 years and only up to a month ago I do not have any chins being hand fed, handfeeding will rule your life, its not to be taken lightly.

 

[mishellyshel]

I have been seeing Dr Goode for several years now. She treats my chin Richie for malo.

Because of this group and the many suggesstions, stories, and guidance I became super informed when i went to her. She had tried several other medicines but upon my insistance, I got her to prescribe Tramadol & Famotidine for the acid as Dawn mentioned.
the only way that I would have her go this route of treatment IS to get xrays. They have great xray equipment in that office. have her provide you with a digital copy and post here.
the thing with malo as everyone has mentioned is that it isnt curable.....sorta like cancer. you may be able to delay or make your pet comfortable but in the end it is going to get the best of him. but he can live for many years if it is not advanced and you are proactive. as long as he is pooping, playing and eating and his quality of life is still good you can relax a bit.

Richie was diagnosed a couple years ago and since then i changed his diet to a variety of pellets...oxbow, mazuri, PRSC and the ever elusive, ever expensive Bearphar plus. I also handfed that little mama's boy every day for well over a year. now i only handfeed once in a while when i notice a weight drop or to stimulate his appetite. i also only give him alfalfa hay because he wont eat timothy. sometime i toss in some orchard grass.
i give him softer wood like willow and also thin apple sticks. he still eats them up.
i also give him an herbal mix that includes various herbs, oats, hay, etc...
his only treats in addition to the nightly pinch of herbal mix are a shredded wheat and an occasional goji berry. i try to avoid rosehips because i dont want them getting stuck in his already messed up teeth. early on one of his teeth actually fell out.

for his medicine i buy a huge container of lifeline, grind it up and syringe him that mixed with tramadol & famatodine in 1 cc syringe every night. i cut the dose of tramadol from the original prescription. i weigh him very often. i keep my eye on him very closely, as soon as i see any signs of anything unusual off he goes. he is actually due for a check soon.

go into your appointments informed and be persistant. she is a very good vet and she is open to alternative treatments. Both myself (Michelle) & Barb (mt zion chins) have been going to her for years. mention us. she knows Richies treatment and can pull his chart.
good luck.

 

[WhiteTree]

I got a quote for xrays today, $422. At the moment I'm unemployed and my parents have been helping me. They don't have the money for that right now. Hopefully in a month or so we can manage it. I've applied to a bunch of places and as soon as I have a job I'll save every penny to get the xrays. She filed down the teeth more today incase she missed a spot because he was still drooling, and he's not drooling now and even started eating his normal food. I'll do whatever I can but at the moment I don't have a penny to my name, school wiped out my bank account then I lost my job the next day. As soon as I can get xrays I'll post them. I was shocked though that there's a $100 fee for them to read the xrays at the vet. The place I did my internship at they took the xray and read it without charging a fee to read it. That doesn't seem right to me to charge to take the xray then charge to read it. I love Dr. Goode though, she's great with my boys. Unfortunately the days she's in are days that I have all day long classes, so I'm rushing in to drop him off for the day then pick him up around 5 or 6 when I get out of the lab, I hate leaving him all day long.

 

[ticklechin]

WOW, that is way too much! I just paid 152.00 for dental x-rays and the vet sent them out for free to a x-ray lab to be read. And this is a vet who works in a 10 million dollar facility!

I drop mine off before work at 7:00am and they get picked up when I can, sometimes after work, they do fine, don't feel bad.

 

[Mt. Zion Chins]

The $400 + is a typical price around here hate to say - that is the way it is

 

[WhiteTree]

I'm going to call around to different vets that deal with exotics to check prices. I was hoping for somewhere in the $300's rather than $400's. I know chinchillas are harder to do because you have to put them under to take the xray whereas a dog or cat we just use restraint but for a cat or dog to have xrays is around $150-200, is the small amount of anesthesia they use on a chinchilla really that expensive to bring it over $200. The difference between a dog xray and a chinchilla xray is the price of having the chin put under and it's teeth filed.

I also don't understand charging to read the xray, they don't do that with dogs and cats at least not at the places I've taken my parents' dog or did my internship at.

He's doing good today, eating a small amount of his pellets on his own but he still wants the critical care in the syringe. It's going to take so many dust baths to clean him up though, his white fur is so stained down his chest and his little front legs look nearly hairless. He's back to his lazy antics, his roommate runs on the flying saucer then he chases him off and sits on it riding it around until it stops then jumps off and his roommate gets it going again and he chases him off again. He loves that wheel but he's never actually ran on it.

 

[Mt. Zion Chins]

IF it was me, I would still stick with Dr. Goode, You are not going to find that much difference in prices, maybe somewhat less and certainly more. I have followed her around the state and at one point had to travel almost 2 hours to get to her. If it was up to her, I am sure it would be less but she doesn't dictate the prices (the places she works for does). I think she is the best around here and would not hesitate to go to her if there was any way possible

 

[mishellyshel]

im sorry but that does seem a little high even for dr goode. i dont recall paying that much. she is very helpful. if you speak to her, maybe she can work with you.
if you try to go to someone else they are going to want to start from scratch and you are going to have to pay for another exam plus the xrays. there are not too many other competent chin vets in the area so if you are going to try someone new make sure you get a lot of information about how much experience they really have.

 

[WhiteTree]

I'm holding off on the xrays for now, I'm waiting to hear about my unemployment claim but I don't know if I'll get it. He's still drooling and eating from the syringe but he does eat some of his normal food and right now him and Andy are playing hide and seek/tag together. I'm getting frustrated that he's still drooling though since she said there were no points left and it's been a week. He doesn't act in pain, he's actually being a big goofball right now. If he wasn't drooling I'd think he was faking to be syringe fed (he is pretty lazy at times) but his left side is still wet. I'm going to call tomorrow to let her know he's still drooling but give it another week before I consider taking him back, I can't take him back every week, it's a long drive and I can afford it. He's still eating by the syringe and even some food from his dish and he's playing so I'll give it another week. I just don't know why he's still drooling if there's no points or ulcers in the mouth and he's had pain meds. He's eating a piece of hay right now or at least attempting to eat it.

 

[Claire D]

I do understand your concerns around money but

I just don't know why he's still drooling if there's no points or ulcers in the mouth and he's had pain meds.

root elongation is painful, as are bony infection and infected tooth roots - several things can cause drooling which is why you need the xrays. At the moment you're groping in the dark because you don't have a complete picture of what is going on inside the skull, below the gum line.

 

[mishellyshel]

in addition to the pain meds did she prescribe an antibiotic?? perhaps one of the points caused a minor mouth infection. maybe a round of the tri meth sulfa (the pink stuff).
it is very inexpensive and would be a good idea as a pre treatment.

but xrays are necessary to determine the level of damage .

 

[ticklechin]

IMO, after going through some ordeals with dental abscesses and periodontal infection, is that TMS and Baytril used together does jack for dental abscesses. Flagyl is the antibiotic of choice to treat the abscess and baytril is used along with it to ward off URI's which go hand in hand with dental abscesses. As I have done in the past with GI issues, I turned to the rabbit people and rescues for help with dental abscesses and that is the treatment they use with success.

I will be blunt to the OP, when dealing with oral issues that are not visual its either the roots, a periodontal infection or a dental abscess, this will end badly if not caught early or taken serious. The issue needs to be diagnosed with a x-ray, treatment needs to start immediately and handfeeding cannot be done long term without complications. Chinchilla teeth grow 1-3mm a week, a couple of weeks of handfeeding can result in overgrown crowns and incisors. I have lived this nightmare numerous times and can tell you you are in a no win situation right now, I am sorry to say. Try to deal with this ASAP.

 

[WhiteTree]

I'll call Dr. Goode's office tomorrow. Maybe there's a payment plan or something that can be worked out. I'm still unemployed and I'm waiting to hear about unemployment. I want the xrays but at the moment I'm not incharge of the money, my parents are and they're struggling. I'm doing what I can but I lost my job just when my school bill was due, this left me nothing, nothing in savings, nothing in my wallet, nothing coming in. This isn't "I have other things I'd rather spend the money on" or "things are tight right now so I'll wait" this is I have nothing because someone screwed me over and as a result I'm left fighting with unemployment, irs and trying to find a new job. And with Scamp being sick ontop of all that, the stress has caused me to have two seizures this week and I haven't had a seizure in over two years. I should know about my unemployment claim any day now and if by some miracle I get it the first thing I'm doing is making an appointment for him to have an x-ray.

 

[ticklechin]

For right now just make sure you are hand feeding him so he does not lose weight and is not hungry but be preprared for a filing if it goes on for more than a couple more weeks. Teeth issues suck, I feel for you in your situation just having a chin with teeth problems and I hope things get better for you soon.