Suggestions?

[EMSChins]

Pixi is one of two sisters that we bred and kept from our very first litter born here at Hendryx Chinchillas. At our very first show, Pixi won RGSC and her sister took 3rd Best of Show. Needless to say we are thrilled with these girls and love them beyond belief!

So, after a full day at work yesterday I came home to find Pixie had littered. One beautiful, large and fluffy standard male popping around the cage - looked like she had littered earlier in the day. Pixi is caring for him but something is just not right. As I am observing her, she stretches her legs out behind her while pushing her pelvis to the floor and slightly twisting to the side. She does this motion several times in the few minutes I watch. Then she goes back to caring for the kit who is trying to nurse. Few minutes later - same motions...oh - oh!!!

I watched for just over an hour and nothing, kit is not crowning, vaginal opening appears to be dry, I can't feel a kit but that doesn't mean anything. So, I call my vet and explain. At first he wants to wait a couple of hours but then I explain how many babies I have seen born and I am convinced that she has been like this all day and that it has probably already been going on for 4 or more hours. He is about to close but agrees to wait until I can get there.

First x ray was negative for a 2nd kit but he had a feeling and took a couple more from different angles. 2nd set of films clearly showed a very large kit laying transverse between the uterine horns and very high up. I opted for both a C-Section and a spay since she clearly shouldn't be bred anymore. Several hours later the large kit was delivered via c-Section and stillborn as expected. Pixi tolerated surgery well and is alert this morning but doesn't appear to have eaten much - no surprise. Love my vet - he stayed 3 hours past closing to care for her!

My concern now is what to do with the live kit. I am more concerned about Pixi from a psychological standpoint and what is in her best interest. She was given buprenex sq last night after surgery. She is on both Orbax and Metacam for the next several days. She was spayed so there will be no milk supply to speak of....do I keep the kit with her for comfort and handfeed him or do I foster him out and let her heal physically without the kit? What are the ramifications for the kit with the meds she has been given and the chance that some of that will be passed in any colostrum that she does manage to produce? This is my first spay/c-section so any information or advice from others who have gone through this would be appreciated. Sorry for the long story!

 

[Sycamore Chins]

She could still produce milk even after being spayed if she is under the appropriate stimulation.
I'm pretty sure that the two surviving c-sections we had done, we didn't spay, but I'm not entirely sure. In both cases we left the babies with mom and there was no detriment to her healing. I would leave the kit with mom, see if she produces milk and supplement/hand feed as necessary.

 

[Pookinaround]

So sorry to hear about Pixie Juanita... Despite the surgery I am glad to hear that she is ok!

 

[EMSChins]

Alicyn - if the ovaries are removed and she stops producing those hormones how will she produce milk for the baby?

 

[EMSChins]

I found this information in relation to humans -should I assume it is the same for rodents?

"Breastfeeding is regulated by hormones secreted by the hypothalmus and the pituitary glands. Your milk production is not affected by removing your ovaries and/or the uterus."

 

[Kansas City Chinchillas]

Are you sure the vet removed her ovaries? I would only expect that her uteruses had been removed.
She may be able to produce milk. I would put the kit with her and see how it does with her. If mom is able to produce milk then leave them together. If she isn't able then I would probably remove the kit. The only reason I would remove the kit is because it may injure her nipples trying to nurse. I know mom will appreciate having her kit with her. She will heal quicker. Chin moms are the greatest.

Edited to say I had a female who needed a c-section and was on baytril for 2 weeks. She nursed her triplets and they were healthy.

 

[EMSChins]

Thanks Cathy. After reading further and reaching waaaaaay back to nursing school I am pretty sure that milk production has nothing to do with whether or not she has ovaries, I was taking the vet at his word and am very sleep deprived this morning.

If she is capable of producing milk then my next concern would be that she is on Metacam and Orbax. Orbax is a quinolone and I am concerned about the effects on the bone growth in the baby? Not sure about metacam - still doing some research.

 

[EMSChins]

After more review of the meds Pixi is on - I feel that it is more appropriate to foster the kit. I feel terribly for Pixi but I just want what is best for both of them.

 

[Sycamore Chins]

Typically vets do ovariohysterectomies, not hysterectomies. So likely her uterus and ovaries were removed.
Once the progesterone falls close to delivering and the estrogen shoots up, usually that is enough to jump start prolactin production which is what maintains the milk production. You don't need an ongoing supply of estrogen from the ovaries.

Our c-sections (?spays?) that survived were not on pain meds or antibiotics post-operatively. Sounds crazy, but very true. The vet that did them is very chin-savvy and after two successes, and many more failures with other vets, I really trust her.

Fluoroquinolones can cause cartilage problems at VERY high doses, so may not be a concern, it's not known whether orbax is excreted in the milk. NSAIDs are excreted in the milk, but other than it possibly being a high dose for kits, I'm not sure if it's contraindicated in babies.

I did some digging and it looks like tramadol or buprenorphine is often used in dogs that had c-section/spay, with very minimal effect on nursing young.

 

[EMSChins]

Okay so now I am torn Alicyn....there was no evidence of an infection when he opened her up so the antibiotics are just to be safe. Dosage is 0.15 mg of Orbax once daily and the metacam is 0.2 mg daily as needed (I am used to giving smaller divided doses every 8 hours).

What would be your advice?

 

[Sycamore Chins]

I'm on the "no antibiotics unless indicated" bandwagon. I definitely think they are overused. If there was no maceration of the fetus, then I wouldn't give them. I did a search on VIN and the majority consensus was no antibiotics unless indicated, especially if antibiotics were given intra-operatively. Pain meds were promoted more often than not. But the dog/cat people use tramadol or buprenorphine - and I like that.

ETA: If mom is good, I really do prefer to keep kits with her. Unless you have a nursing foster that can take her. Here, we almost never have a nursing foster, so handfeeding would be our only option and we try to avoid that at all costs. Moms milk/love is the best.

 

[EMSChins]

Thanks Alicyn. I got a return call from my vet in Columbus who was not an option last night when all of this occurred. She generally agrees - if no indication of an infection no need for them. She agreed with me that the once a day dosing of Metacam was odd. I am still waiting for the operating/prescribing vet to call me back today.

Thanks everyone who responded with well wishes for Pixi girl! Sorry if I seem rude or rushed - just worried about her!

 

[Sycamore Chins]

Best of luck! Make sure mom is eating, whether you keep her on pain meds or not, give her anything she wants - we had a girl bloat after c-section and she did not make it.

 

[EMSChins]

Yep - I have CC and LL on hand to start if needed.

 

[Kansas City Chinchillas]

My girls who've had c-sections have not been given pain meds either. I'd give her some gas drops even if she doesn't have symptoms and is eating. I've always done that after c-sections and had no problems.

 

[Godins Chinchillas]

I'm with Alycin. We do not give antibiotics for our spays or c-sections unless there was an infection. We give 4-5 doses of metacam and that's it. All have nursed their babies regardless of their surgery.

 

[EMSChins]

Jess, this girl is about 875 - 900 gms (not pregnant). I am used to giving 0.1 cc of metacam every 8 hours.

The scrip that I was given says to give 0.2 cc once a day. This doesn't sound right to me and one vet agreed with me (to be fair I still haven't heard back from the other vet).

Thoughts???

 

[EMSChins]

I'd give her some gas drops even if she doesn't have symptoms and is eating. I've always done that after c-sections and had no problems.

Never thought about this...but after having two c-sections myself I think that this is an awesome idea and it certainly will do her no harm! Thanks Cathy.

 

[Kansas City Chinchillas]

You're welcome Juanita. Hope she has a speedy recovery.

 

[EMSChins]

So original vet (who operated and prescribed) finally called me back. Agrees with decision to discontinue the antibiotic and to keep kit with mom. Both vets agree that there is no real research to indicate that Orbax is secreted in breast milk but better to be safe than sorry and since there was no evidence of a uterine infection we will just dc it!

Will continue to give Metacam as needed aalong with gas drops and supplemental feedings to both kit and mom as needed. Kit is in with mom and both appear to be doing fine and are settled. Lots of drama over here! Lol!!!