Seizure?

[Amphy64]

Henry just had what I think may have been a seizure, very suddenly curling up on his side (I mean with his nose going towards his tail), then went round in circles, then staggering around. The vet said seizures were jerky and I'm not sure that's quite how I'd describe it, and he wasn't totally unaware the entire time I don't necessarily think, so don't know if it was or not. I gave him a cranberry and he ate it, while it didn't last very long, he seemed to go back to normal and then not right, not a seizure exactly but seeming out of it, lying flat again. He went back and forth between those states and is resting now. It did look like what I witnessed before after I seemed to have concussed him, so don't know if there's a connection (of course feel very responsible), but then he'd seemed to be less active and less alert and I wasn't sure if he was well for some time before that.

Before it happened, the last few days I'd started to think he seemed a bit out of it, glazed over at times, not eating as much pellets, at one point he climbed onto my shoulder but felt sort of odd, limp almost. This evening right before it happened, he was playing, I'd just fed him, he'd watched the girls be fed and noticed they'd got a toy (was I think anticipating/wanting), I let him sniff my hand which I think smelt of them since he seemed interested, given him an apple stick, seemed very happy with that. I walked back in after being in the kitchen or about ten minutes and he was lying flatter than usual in his box. I could've thought he was resting after playing (which he's started to be sooner to do but not sure if he is quite right when doing so), but he just didn't look right. He seemed to snap back to normal as I talked to him, but, I don't know, it wasn't like going from resting to active, it was like a light being switched back on, and although he was bouncing round he was moving between things like his dust and bowl quickly almost like he didn't know what he was doing. Then he very suddenly curled onto his side. I sort of wondered if he'd got overly stressed/excited by all the stimulus (food, awareness of the girls, scent, toy) and if that was a trigger. It was horrible to watch and I honestly thought he was going to die suddenly (please can anyone tell me if that's likely? He'd looked fine earlier in the evening so it was such a shock).

I don't know if it was a seizure but would guess it was neurological? I had a rabbit once who caught I think a protozoa infection, it sort of reminded me of that in the way he circled (rabbit recovered initially and lived for some time longer seeming Ok but seemed to die from it eventually).

He's just come down and eaten some hay and looks a bit better right now, but I'm not sure if he'll go back into that sort of state again. I can take him to the vet tomorrow but the one who sees most chins isn't on and I'm not really sure what they should look for or what treatment there might be (that's safe for chins) if any.

 

[ticklechin]

Nose to tail is classic low calcium. What color are his incisors? If they are light yellow or lighter I would give him loose alfalfa as much as he wants to treat it.

 

[Amphy64]

I did wonder if they looked lighter at one point, but would say they're at least medium orange now. He has had alfalfa bales in the past but not for several months now, I'd stopped giving when reducing his diet to basics in case digestion was the issue. Given him some now (and can order some loose), which he took off me and nibbled happily anyway.

He's looking better at the moment.

 

[Amphy64]

He does look better today. Vet thinks it may be epilepsy and has prescribed half of a 2mg diazepam tablet daily, not sure if that's what's typically given or not.

 

[tunes]

I personally would hold off on medicating him for epilepsy over just one episode. Sometimes chins can have a seizure from low calcium, as Dawn mentioned, low blood sugar, overheating, etc. I had a chin have a seizure one time and never again and she's now 17. It never recurred so I didn't take her to the vet. I gave her a tiny bit of a raisin, alfalfa hay, and that was the end of it. I still have no idea why she had a seizure.

 

[ticklechin]

Valium IMO would not be a option for me to give a chin unless all other reasons for the seizures were ruled out, just my opinion.

 

[Amphy64]

I personally would hold off on medicating him for epilepsy over just one episode.

Agreed, I'm inclined to think it's at least two, though, given that it looked like what happened before when I thought he'd been concussed (it wasn't an instant reaction then, he ran off then it happened), and started in the same way with him curling up nose towards tail (of course I feel horrible about that incident worrying if it caused this). The vet considered that the phased out times (which I do think started before the possible concussion) might be seizures too.

It's very cool here at the moment (about 14C and under) so temperature should be fine, although I've noticed him sitting with an ear down and looking red quite a few times (based on touching that ear maybe felt warmer than the other) - can they have issues with internal temperature control? He hasn't been out for exercise for a few weeks (I just wanted to monitor him), was just in his cage all day yesterday (no wheel, wasn't really that active overall).

I'm certainly reluctant to medicate with valium also, not really sure of the best approach.

As well as the giving the alalfa, also going to have a look for some wheat germ, just in case of thiamine deficiency.

 

[Amphy64]

There was also a couple of times I thought I'd seen him twitching, but not sure if a sign of discomfort, shifting position or if he was going to clean himself then got distracted, wouldn't confidently say it wasn't a mild seizure though. His back end has seemed held a bit sort of flatter (vet said looked Ok, I can't see any hair rings).

 

[Tanya]

I see that you want to get some wheat germ as a source of thiamine, and I just want to say that you need to be careful with it. Wheat germ turns rancid very fast! When it becomes rancid, toxic decomposition takes place. It is nearly impossible to get untoasted wheat germ that has not become rancid at least to some degree.

I would offer oat bran instead; it contains less thiamine (~1.2 mg per 100g compared to ~1.9 mg per 100g of wheat germ) but it is a safer choice ) Also, wheat bran can be used, but it contains less thiamine than oat bran. Alfalfa, red clover, and nettle contain some thiamine as well.

I would recommend using a quality herbal supplement that contains oats and herbs. If your chin has more episodes in the future, then you may consider using skullcap in addition to a general supplement or you can offer a special herbal supplement for seizures.

 

[Amphy64]

Oh gosh, thank you for the warning and the alternative suggestions, Tanya, it would never even have occurred to me that something like that could go rancid. I gave him some yesterday as well, packet well within date but I don't think I'll give him any more just to be on the safe side.


I did give the valium in the end, I'm not really happy about it but I just don't want him to have another seizure if that's what it was, so may use it for now at least. Wrapped a bit of cranberry round it and he ate it good as gold, which made me feel even more guilty about giving it him. He looked very out of it last night which I'm not sure if it was the medication or something else (I was on it myself for a short time years back so I know how out of it it made me feel, let alone a chinchilla), ear down and red and warm again. He did seem to pick up though after a while, I gave him some apple juice and water mixed (he won't drink just plain water if I offer it) in case he was dehydrated, I know his bottle works but aren't sure if he's drinking enough.

He's six years old today. He seemed happy and alert playing with his new toys at least.

 

[Amphy64]

Update: He's seeming out of it quite a lot. I know that's kind of a vague way to describe it, especially when he's still responsive, perfectly capable of coming and taking a treat off me and jumping on his perch, he just doesn't seem right. While that could be the medication, he was seeming like that before, so I'm not sure. He seemed a lot brighter last night, more aware, and felt sort of more 'solid' to touch - like there's muscle resistance or something? I don't know how to explain it but he's felt almost frail. Unfortunately though, the periods where he is more alert don't seem to translate to him eating more (teeth fine, the vet said on the visit before the last), and last night in particular he really doesn't seem to have eaten much. He's not really playing with toys for long either. He's not completely disinterested, sometimes he's seemed really pleased with it, and then just not gone back to it, which wasn't usual for him. Seeing him last night, he looked normal, but he's not acting that way overall.

At this point everything stands out to me and I don't know what might be significant or not. At one point (before this seizure if that's what it was) I'd thought he'd squeaked in maybe discomfort when going to the toilet (poos look fine). I saw him drink urine a few times which seemed weird, maybe he'd always have done it if the cage had had a solid base before, but it made me wonder if he was dehydrated (he can use the bottle, I haven't seen him use it much lately though so am continuing to offer water and apple juice - which I guess isn't going to encourage him to use the bottle though). He also seemed to be randomly squeaking/squealing in quite a high unhappy seeming way or maybe he'd bumped himself or it was directed at the girls. He seems to be stretching more. I just don't know.

I'm not sure how to proceed really (other than probably better order some critical care). I don't feel even sure of what's the matter, or what tests if any he should have. The vet said chinchillas need to go under anaesthetic for blood tests, which scares me to think of. Could it be some kind of infection having a neurological effect? The vet felt that if it was an infection he'd be that way all the time, but then he does seem out of it quite a bit. If his brain was damaged, god forbid, would he be in the same state all the time or could it seem to fluctuate? Or maybe I'm wrong in the first place in thinking it does. I'm not sure, maybe I'm on the wrong track altogether, it's been such a worrying few days.

 

[ticklechin]

Valium is going to take all the chinchilla-ness out of the chinchilla, hence why it would be a last resort to treat seizures, I would look to the source of the issue and rule out all external possibilities before I would use it, I would also see what frequency it happened and treat on a seizure by seizure basis with valium rather than pre-med with valium on the chance a seizure would happen.

 

[Cuddlebug]

I would also cut out all the treats and the apple juice. That stuff can cause digestive issues and is not good for him at all. He does not need tummy trouble on top of everything else. If he will not drink out of his bottle, you need to give him water with a syringe by squirting it into his mouth.

 

[Amphy64]

Ah, Ok, can do I think, thanks for the suggestion. The cranberries aren't a usual treat, it was just in case it was his blood sugar that caused the seizure, and to get him to take the first tablet (as it turns out, he'll take them anyway if I just give them him, which makes me feel kind of guilty, he seems to like them).

Valium is going to take all the chinchilla-ness out of the chinchilla

Yeah, I can definitely see that it might, unfortunately. The thing is though, that he seemed like this before he went on the valium anyway, so I'm not really sure if it's the medication or not. The only time he hadn't, was the week before the two or three days leading up to the seizure(?) - I thought then he was picking up, he was more active and seemed to be noticing the environment more, playing with toys he seemed to have forgotten about. Then he went out of it again for those two or three days, apart from picking up the evening right before the seizure. The only things I can think of that changed were that I'd had the lights on more during those days, which I guess could be photosensitivity maybe? (lights have now been off again since seizure, except for lamp) And I think he was possibly drinking less, though not sure if that was cause or effect.

He'd seemed better again the last couple of days, but last night his ear was down and red and hot again, and he seemed out of it, though picked up about 10-15 mins after being given water, and he's seemed that way on and off since then and was twitching in his sleep this morning (hopefully just dreaming but...). Last night he'd been playing earlier in the evening, chewing up his birthday toy.

As far as ruling things out goes, if it was hypoglycaemia I'd have guessed it would've showed up before, when he was younger, especially as he's now been getting much less exercise than then. Not sure about calcium, but his teeth are decently orange. Perhaps he should have tests?

I've asked my vet to send on his history to an exotic vet, and will call them again tomorrow to see if he's received it.

 

[Amphy64]

Saw the vet again when went to pick up more tablets and discuss medication. Some very bad news, the vet looked at his eyes and thinks he's lost his sight, I'm still just in shock really, my poor baby. The vet suggested he might have a brain tumour or lesion, of course I can't stop thinking what if it was damage from the concussion if that's what it was, but then he'd not been acting usually for some time before that. Feel so awful about it. The vet said to try reducing the dose to a quarter of a tablet, and discussed if phenobarbitol might be better, though there's risk of liver issues. He's been up and down, sometimes he seems fine and sometimes out of it. We discussed tests including maybe an X-ray (when he's engaging in coprophagy I've noticed he often seems to squeak as though the movement is uncomfortable) but the vet said if there is a problem with his brain then putting him under anaesthetic will be riskier. He's gained 40 grams which seems really weird, I count out his pellets when he's fed so don't think he's been eating more, and last time I weighed him he weighed more than I was expecting him to too and I'd thought he almost maybe seemed bigger (he used to be quite a small, slightly wedgy chin, now he maybe even seems to look bigger?), the vet says it's not fluid causing it.

Haven't head back from the exotic vet yet.

 

[Amphy64]

This morning he'd been squeaking as though uncomfortable, seemed to be when bending over for corophagy, at 10:36 he whimpered and was twitching very violently in his sleep, he responded after being called to repeatedly and came forward and took seed pods treat from me, hopped down went to toilet so seemed to have woken up and hopped back up to his nestbox again, then at 11:12 he whimpered and was again twitching in sleep though less violently, he responded immediately when called to but took a while to come forward and take a seed pod. This was the day after I'd reduced the valium dose, I'm not sure if they were seizures but the first time especially he was twitching a lot more than I'd expect if it was just dreaming. I gave him another 1/4 valium (the vet had said I could put the dose back up again if he seemed worse). He ate some pellets after that and has been up and down but seemed to hopefully be picking up a bit now. I've just given him the other 1/4 valium. I'm not sure if he had less water yesterday, I've given him some now by syringe.

Ran the vet again and asked them to send updated history to exotic vet, and have sent them my observational notes.

 

[Amphy64]

He'd been worse for a few days, especially yesterday up till the evening (he was playing but kept going flat and out of it very quickly), I took him to see the exotics vet on Friday. His ear went down and red pretty much as we got there, she said he didn't seem quite present in the room. They said they'd book us in for Thursday for blood tests and X-ray.

I cleaned his cage out yesterday and noticed even on the fresh newspaper from the corner I'd changed before, his urine seemed to really stink. Not sure if that's caused by the meds or sign of infection or something. He'd seemed to be going to the toilet a lot the past couple of days, or trying to go at times, and in places he wouldn't usually, and rushing to go very quickly.

Yesterday evening he started to seem a bit better and today, really really hope it lasts. He drank more and I got more water down him yesterday (admit I did end up using heavily diluted apple juice -I keep this in fridge not sure if coolness helps any-, he got wet last time I tried plain water in the syringe, and I just didn't dare stress him again), I wonder if that helped.

 

[Amphy64]

Got through it Ok, they were able to do it quite quickly. He seemed awake enough when brought him home but is very tired now. The X-rays looked Ok, no root overgrowth, ears Ok, and we should be getting the blood test results back tomorrow afternoon.

The vet put him on oral baytril for suspected urinary infection, which he not surprisingly I guess hates even though it's mixed with a little juice as the vet suggested, and seems to have now gone of his food and his poos are tiny and few. I've fed him some mushed pellets and oat bran from a syringe, I have a couple sachets of critical care as well (will have to look up instructions as they don't seem to be in English on the sachet) and a couple of sachets of this:
https://www.thehayexperts.co.uk/supreme-recovery-plus.html
if that should be Ok to give to chins? The vet didn't give me any probiotics yet, said the baytril would kill the bacteria in it so to give probiotics after the course was finished. I'm not really sure if he needs to be on baytril, maybe if the blood tests don't show anything he doesn't?

I think he is perhaps having small maybe 'petit mal' type seizures. He has several times been twitching in his sleep and whimpering in the mornings (I know they can just have bad dreams but he was twitching so violently one time it seemed more than that), and possibly when his ears go so red and hot it could be due to the raise in temperature during seizure. I was interested to read in an article in the NCS gazette that it's often at feeding time they seize, because he always does seem to go out of it around that time (not blood sugar, but the excitement). I guess I'll have to think about how to cool him down if his ears go pink/red (the room isn't warm anyway, but it doesn't seem to make any difference), I have an ice pod that can be frozen but not sure I can get him to sit on it. The vet was considering if he should be on phenobarbitol.

 

[ticklechin]

The supreme recovery is like the UK equivalent of critical care, I have used it and the chin did not care for it much. Its safe and hopefully your chin will like it, baytril will kill off the appetite so make sure you feed him at least 45ml a day, more if he will eat it. I personally would go for the pheno rather than the valium.

 

[Amphy64]

Thanks, that's good to know.

Doing Ok with handfeeding, and he'll eat the mushed pellets mix if I leave some in a bowl in his cage as well. He's otherwise seemed quiet the last few days, disorientated at times, his ear going down and red again (I thought maybe he felt warm underneath too), making moopmoopmoop sort of sound a lot, frustrated//whimper (sometimes I think it's because the girls were noisy, but sometimes I'm not sure why) and the sort of painful sounding noise a few times, and is choosing odd spots to urinate again - he just went in his dustbath. I'm not sure if he really knows what he's doing or not, even when he's more lively he just seems off sometimes somehow.

Got the blood test results back today, and spoke to I think the junior exotics vet, he said the white blood cell count is extremely low, and that they'd want him to be on antibiotics because of that, which he already still is (has had seven days worth as of today), but he suggested switching from baytril to septrin. Not sure if that might be better, it's getting to be difficult fighting him to get him to take the baytril. He seemed unsure of the cause, but my mum told me that once when she was on an antidepressant, it caused her to have a low white blood cell count, so I looked it up and it seems in humans at least it can be a rare side-effect of valium (he hasn't been on it that long but maybe the effect would be faster in chins), so not sure if it's that or if it's to do with the underlying issue. Hopefully on Thursday I might be able to talk to the vet we saw.