Sea World tragedy

[Claire D]

This will probably hack off a few people but it's 4:06 am and I don't rightly care at the moment. I just wanted to point out when you sleep--humans and animals alike your heart continues to beat, you breathe and you live. Calling it "put to sleep" of PTS is just ridiculously childish. Whenever you end the life of an animal by giving it drugs to stop it from living you are killing it. That's just the plain and simple truth. I know we call it put to sleep to ease our conscience--but come up let's man up and grow some balls about the phrase. Ending the life of anything is not "putting it to sleep"

I think this is a two-fold issue. One is euthanising a perfectly healthy animal just because we humans decide it is not fit to live on this planet & the second is performing that last, loving act of kindness on an animal which is in pain, distress, or has reached the end of a terminal condition.

Whilst I agree with you on one level - the word euthanasia is preferable - I am going to put a slightly different twist on the term "put to sleep" - from an anthropomorphic point of view (which is what we humans use constantly).
Anyone who has been anaesthetised knows that as far as you are concerned you are "put to sleep". The drugs are administered & for you, the patient, you effectively "go to sleep" i.e. are reduced to a level of unconsciousness from which you then (hopefully) "wake up" after the procedure.

Taking a beloved pet to be euthanised - I don't have a problem with using the vernacular "put to sleep" because I view it as taking my companion who has reached the end of a terminal disease or condition to their final "rest". For them, they simply fall asleep under the anaesthetic & are then given a fatal dose of anaesthesia so that their heart & respiratory systems fail. They "fall alseep" & know nothing more - it is us humans who have a problem with it. I genuinely find it a privilege (although an excrituatingly painful one at times) to be able to provide for them that final act of kindness & compassion.
If it helps humans feel a sense of peace in that kind of situation then I think using "PTS" as a phrase is wholly acceptable.

The first scenario - as is being discussed here with Tilly? Absolutely not. It's not even euthanasia (the original Greek means "A good death") .......... & I'll leave my thoughts there.


Going back to whales in captivity - dolphins & whales use sonar to communicate - the tanks, not matter how large they seem, distort those sonar signals & the constant noise from humans (construction work, fireworks, banging on the glass etc) must have an impact on the animals - I wonder if anyone has considered that sensory deprivation & over-stimulation are used as forms of torture .......... something else to think about perhaps.

 

[alli713]

Laurie, I agree with Claire here. I think that when putting your own pet down, it's perfectly acceptable to use the phrase put to sleep. When I had to put Mei down, yes, I used the term put to sleep. But I know I was the one to decide that she was being euthanized. But saying, I had Mei put to sleep sounds a bit better than I killed Mei. Or even I had Mei euthanized. To me, those both sound a bit harsh, seeing as I was tore up over the situation.

But for an animal that isn't a pet, yes I do think the term euthanize is more appropriate.

Was he born in captivity? If so, even after one death it would be hard for him to survive in the wild. So I don't think it's an easy answer to that.

Personally I have mixed emotions about places like Sea World. I worked in an aquarium and while we didn't have animals that performed, I do think that they can do good for society. There are many people who aren't going to go out and learn about the animals, and may never have a chance to see them in the wild. The large mammals like whales and things I don't really agree with keeping in captivity just because I don't think we can adequately provide for them. But for some smaller animals, I do think that many zoos and aquariums do a good job with their care and do care about the animals. And they can help children and adults gain a greater appreciate for the environment.

 

[mishalaa]

They are forced to live in enclosures that are much too small for them. Put on public display, subjected to unnatural surroundings and noises (every night during the summer, Sea World San Diego has a huge fireworks display that I can hear and I live 10 miles away). What about this scenario is not forcing them to do anything? It's not like they have free will and can swim off into the ocean and return of their own volition to perform because they enjoy it so much. They are held captive and forced to learn tricks and entertain humans.

I never meant that Sea World was completely blameless, just that the whales, dolphins, sea lions, walrus, etc aren't being forced to do "tricks" as a few have claimed in this thread. "Forced" is totally the wrong word. These animals are evidently willing to do these behaviors on command because, hey, what else are you going to do when you live in a bath tub? It's part of their enrichment, and they do those behaviors daily whether there's an audience there or not.

As for being forced to live in captivity - that could be said about any animal in captivity, whether they are part of a performance or not. Sea World surpasses AZA standards and practices, which is better than a lot of places with performance animals.

Whether or not I agree with those standards and practices is moot. The only point I'm trying to make is that saying Sea World "forces" the animals to perform is inaccurate and unfair. They're not punished, harmed or put down when they don't want to cooperate.

 

[Claire D]

They're not punished, harmed or put down when they don't want to cooperate.

No? I think you will find Tilly has been isolated from the other whales & the trainers are no longer allowed to enter the water with the whales - that's akin to punishment on at least 2 levels:
1. whales live in family groupings so depriving Tilly (& the other whales) of company is tantamount to a punishment
2. the "play" of the whales is being curtailed (rightly or wrongly does not matter to the whales) which is also tantamount to a punishment.

We cannot have it both ways - we seem to want the "wildness" that these animals bring as some form of education (ambassadors?) but we also expect them to "play nice" within the concrete confines in which we place them.
What the "trainers" do with the whales is manipulate their natural tendencies but it is done in a very controlled & performance-driven manner. In the wild whales/dolphins will play with many things including debris & garbage, old floats, seals, penguins etc - we sanitise that down to hoops, flapping fins, doing somersaults..... in a routine. There's no spontaneity - Tilly was playing in a spontaneous way & he does not deserve to be punished for that.

BTW have a look through YouTube at all the videos taken of whales "misbehaving" at SeaWorld & other water park shows - it's quite sobering how many of them there are.

 

[Parkerspetchins]

According to Sea World, he is not segregated and does have interaction with the other whales...

Laurie, I think people should call it what they want. So what if it's to ease their conscience? An easy conscience is way better than guilt ridden angst when you have to decide to humanely euthanize your beloved pet. No one has to "man up" in my eyes, do what you have to do to get through it...

 

[Claire D]

According to Sea World, he is not segregated and does have interaction with the other whales...

They have also stated that he has been kept isolated before (& was after the latest event) ................ the story keeps changing.

 

[mishalaa]

Quarantining an animal after an attack is standard operating procedure. I don't know how long the quarantine lasts, but I'm not talking about this incident or their wild instincts anyway. I'm talking solely about their training and performances.

A lot of people in this thread have expressed that they think the performances are cruel. I don't. I think it's far more cruel to have an intelligent animal in captivity with nothing to do. Training them is a vital part of their enrichment and keeps their minds active. Doing it in front of an audience pays for the exorbitant costs to keep them and funds many other programs Sea World has to benefit marine life. They are not forced to perform - they are asked.

Whatever circumstances brought them into captivity are irrelevant - they are here now and need to be taken care of. Releasing them after 20-30 years in captivity is not in their best interest, so we have to do the best we can to accommodate them. We could always be doing better but current conditions are adequate according to the AZA.

As for the incident - it's unfortunate, and that's all I really have to say about it.

 

[Claire D]

Quarantining an animal after an attack is standard operating procedure. I don't know how long the quarantine lasts, but I'm not talking about this incident or their wild instincts anyway. I'm talking solely about their training and performances.

You are entirely missing the point - this whale has been kept in isolation many times: not quarantine but isolation.

http://animaltourism.blogspot.com/2010/02/killer-whale-tilly-father-to-one.html

http://www.news24.com/Content/World/News/1073/dfe34e1f77b24a569d91cd271ac042bb/25-02-2010-08-23/Killer_whales_fate_debated

Naomi Rose, a marine mammal scientist with The Humane Society:
"If they keep him in isolation the way they do, they keep him in that small tank that he's in, this is going to happen again."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/feb/25/killer-whale-tilikum-drowned-trainer-hair

The Whale and Dolphin Conservation Society said it was time to recognise that keeping animals up to 26ft-long in small tanks was no longer acceptable.

"The spaces are inadequate, the psychological damage is deep. These are highly social, long-distance acoustic animals who are harmed by living in concrete pens," it said.

 

[mishalaa]

Once again, you are missing my point... I was never talking about this whale specifically - just the performances of all the whales/seals/etc generally.

I have no idea what Sea World is doing or has done with him, how many times he's been isolated or for how long. The reports conflict, I don't trust anything the HSUS says, and I'm not there. Thus, I am not talking about this whale.

 

[CTChin]

I'm not sure how I feel about SeaWorld at the moment but I am happy to learn that they use ONLY positive training methods with the whales. This is a whole lot better than the way the Ringling corcis trains their elephants

 

[beanjelly]

If you have not seen the documentary The Cove, you all need to see it. It's absolutely heartbreaking, but a big eye opener.

 

[Claire D]

Once again, you are missing my point... I was never talking about this whale specifically - just the performances of all the whales/seals/etc generally.

I have no idea what Sea World is doing or has done with him, how many times he's been isolated or for how long. The reports conflict, I don't trust anything the HSUS says, and I'm not there. Thus, I am not talking about this whale.

No, I'm not missing your point at all - you are generalising & the rest of us are talking about a specific whale.
What makes you think that your generalising what is theoretically meant to happen & is spouted out by commerical enterprises has any bearing on reality for these animals? What happens in public & what happens in private may well be two completely different things.
The fact remains - these whales in captivity often display signs of behaviour which threatens the lives of the "trainers" they are with - as I said, check out the numerous videos on YouTube which show trainers in trouble during live shows. You can't "train" a whale & expect it to "play nice" all the time & punishing them in whatever form it takes does nothing to help the situation.

You can continue to defend the treatment of whales in captivity all you like but this particular whale in this particular scenario is what this thread is about & he has been deliberately isolated a number of times during his captivity ........ He has been directly involved in the deaths of 3 people. Once again, the humans are getting it very wrong.

 

[mishalaa]

I was responding to generalizations that had been made about whale training on the whole, thus this thread is no longer just about this whale and I don't think I'm off topic at all.

I'm well aware of the "misbehaving" that has occurred. As someone who has worked with trained animals in public, I never thought of the training as concrete and had a healthy respect for the animals knowing that if they wanted to, they could kill me at any moment. I assume whale trainers are as aware of those risks too, to a much greater extent, and don't expect those animals to be perfect little angels all the time. That's why there are protocols and safety measures, though they're not always fool proof.

I'm not defending their captivity either, but I don't advocate their release if they're just going to beach themselves shortly after.

All I was ever defending was Sea World's training - which I do know more about than just what the "commerical enterprises have spouted."

 

[Laurie]

Really this thread was the topic of people being surprised by this occurring. Which is to me, surprising. As I said wild animals are just that--WILD. I don't know why man thinks he has the right to interfere in so much. We encroach so much on the lives of the animals around us and when someone is hurt or injured it comes as a shock. That to me is surprising. Everyday you step into an enclosure with an animal or slip into the water with an animal that is being held captive and someone dies or gets hurt shouldn't surprise us--nor the person killed or harmed at all. Until animals can talk and tell us exactly what they are feeling we will never truly know. Now matter what the so called experts claim about animal behavior. Until they can vocalize their thoughts and feelings we just can't be sure.

 

[Vixey]

You can never blame an animal, they only act on instinct. Fear or whatever, nobody will really know. It's said for the trainers family. I do not agree when they kill an animal for an attack. If anything, let it go back into the wild where it belonged. Taking an animal from the wild is never a good idea.

 

[minrex]

You can never blame an animal, they only act on instinct. Fear or whatever, nobody will really know. It's said for the trainers family. I do not agree when they kill an animal for an attack. If anything, let it go back into the wild where it belonged. Taking an animal from the wild is never a good idea.

I don't agree that it's NEVER a good idea to take an animal from the wild. If that were true, we wouldn't have any domestic animals because they ALL are descended (however distantly) from animals that were taken from the wild. Also, species like the California condor would almost certainly be in much worse shape (possibly even completely extinct) if the remaining members of the species hadn't all been rounded up and brought into captivity in order to try to re-establish the species through controlled breeding.

While I don't believe that euthanizing the orca is the right thing to do (which, by the way, no one in this thread has suggested SeaWorld do), I also don't believe that he should simply be released back into the wild. That would almost certainly be a death sentence for the animal. If he were going to be released, he would need to go through months, possibly years, of preparation before he'd be ready to go back to the wild.

 

[Ash]

I have a question. This is brought about by people who have suggested rehabbing him to the wild. While he COULD possibly be retrained to fend for himself, isn't it still a death sentence? I know with reptiles, they say you can't introduce them back because of a problem with having no immunity to naturall bacterias and stuff. Wouldn't this possibly be similar for ocean mammals? I recalll it being aid that the other whale released died of sickness not long after being released. Just a foodfor though...

 

[mishalaa]

Keiko is the only orca to have ever been released after being in captivity, so we can't really predict their immune responses based off of just one animal... But yeah, he caught pneumonia and beached himself a year after his release.

However, many cetaceans have died from bacterial infections after being brought into captivity, which to me suggests a weakening of the immune system once in artificial sea water.