running out of options, please help!

[dozier0708]

Hello, we have a six year old male chinchilla that has had 2 surgerys to remove bladders stones in the past year. I just took him back to the vet today and he has another 3 bladder stones! We are out of ideas on how to prevent them. He just had surgery last November and again in June, we can't just keep having surgery to remove them. He is currently eating oxbow timothy based bunny food (thats what the vet told us) and oat hay (supposed to be the lowest in calcium). He drinks distilled water and get very minimal treats (nothing with alfalfa or high levels of clacium). We are considering having another surgery that I guess is similar to what a cat gets if they continually get bladder stones. (We don't know much about it and niether does our vet, but we don't know what else to do) If anyone has any other suggestions please let us know!! We don't want to wait too long because one of the stones is small enough that it could block the urethra.

Plese help!
Valarie

 

[Riven]

Change your water.

Have you had any of these stones tested to see what they are composed of? Not all stones are due to calcium. Changing the diet that extreme may possibly making the whole issue worse.

Stones can be due to poor hormone or kidney failure as well, and are usually do to holding the bladder, and not urinating often enough.

Does he have a wheel? The muscles use calcium to work, more muscle work, means more calcium used.

Is he having symptoms or how are they diagnosing the stones?

I think you're talking about an urethrostomy. I had it done in cats before. One of mine, and my neighbor had hers done. They have never been right since, both ended up peeing everywhere, mine would even pee on the bed while I was in it, a sign of pain. I will never put an animal through that surgery again, and in fact 7 months ago put down my favorite cat due to chronic urinary issues because I would not put him through that.

In cats pH balance can actually help prevent the issue.

 

[ticklechin]

You need to have the stone analyzed so you and your vet can develop a plan of action. Depending on the stone's makeup, increasing fluids by hand syringing fluids or administering subcutaneous injections of fluids twice a week can be helpful but stones can also be caused by infection-the stone is the bodies way of encapsulating it. We here in the bay area had a rash of stones in chins a few years ago, all chins were from owners who fed the proper diet and the vet felt it was some kind of airborn infection that went around.

 

[aznmexaggie]

The vet needs to examine the makeup of the stones. Not all stones are calcium oxalate based. Giving such a phosphorous rich diet (grain hays such as oat have a high phosphorous:calcium ratio compared to grass hays such as timothy which are balanced 1:1) may be causing more stones to be formed, if they are phosphorous-based such as magnesium-ammonium-phosphate stones. These phosphate stones are often associated with bacterial infection...

 

[dozier0708]

We have had all of the stones analyzed and they were all 100% calcium carbonate. He does have a wheel that he runs on frequently. We can try to take it out if you think that will help. Also, our vet told us to give him distilled water. Is there something wrong with distilled water and what would you recommend instead? Our vet today sounded defeated and said she didn't know what else to do. We are willing to try anything!

 

[dozier0708]

And yes he has symptoms that have led to x-rays to determine that he had bladder stones. He was peeing frequently and wimpering while he was peeing, he was drinking a lot of water and he had blood in his urine.

 

[ticklechin]

You might try one of the lower calcium hays, since oat is not the lowest. How is his water intake when he does not have stones?


Type of Hay Calcium %
1 Wheat Hay 0.13
2 Bromegrass mature 0.24
3 Orchard Grass early 0.24
4 Bermuda grass 43-56 days 0.24
5 Orchard Grass late 0.24
6 Bluegrass 0.24
Meadow Mix (nic in study) 0.24
7 Oat Hay 0.29
Bermuda grass 29-42 days 0.30
Bunny Blend (nic in study) 0.33
9 Timothy - late bloom 0.34
10 Bermuda grass15-28 days 0.35
11 Fescue - mature 0.37
12 Timothy - mid bloom 0.43
13Timothy - early bloom 0.45
14 Rye Grass 0.53
15 Alfalfa full bloom 1.08
16 Alfalfa mid bloom 1.24
17 Alfalfa early bloom 1.28

 

[Riven]

I can't back up anything on the water issue but... here it goes. I talked with my vet about it and he thought it might be a good theory.

When I lived in Columbus we never had any issue with cats, in the three years I worked at the vet I can't recall one urethostomy. The vet in Kearney did them often. When I talked to the vet who put my cat to sleep, I told him I questioned the water, he thought about it and said when he lived in Wyoming they did them ALL the time, and that the water content might be plausible.

Does the distilled water have a % on it? That would determine how distilled it is, how much of it is pure water. It will never be completely pure, never, ever, ever.

He needs to move more urine through his bladder. I don't know if this is an option, but maybe talk to your vet to see if there is anything you can give him regularly to increase urine out put AND water intake. Flavoring the water would probably increase intake, but you'd have to change it all the time, but it's cheaper than repetitive surgery...

Also, I would try a different feed maybe. Or hey... what about putting apple cider vinegar in the water, that will actually change the pH of the body, and I think some animals like the taste and it may help him increase his intake. Body pH should affect how the body works, and in cats changing the pH levels helps with stones. Horse people use ACV because it changes the body's pH making them less tasty to flies and mosquitos, generally safe for horses is safe for chins. Ask your vet about it.

I'd also try a different food. Because not only is the Calcium important but the other minerals as well.

What do his teeth look like?

And can you PM me or post your vet info, because I get people that way asking me about vets on occasion and I really don't know about the vets that way.

 

[mishellyshel]

Maybe you can incorporate all ideas and put multiple water bottles in his cage. one that maybe has a flavored water, one that has the vinegar in it, on that is just plain. in addition, i think syringe feeding to add more water is a good idea. And changing the food.
Hopefully with all these changes, your chinnie will be on the mend.

 

[dozier0708]

He doesn't have an issue with water intake though. He drinks A LOT of water, especially this past year since he has been having issues. But I guess this is the only chinchilla we have had so I don't know how much they should actually be drinking. He drinks an eight ounce bottle in two days.

The vet said his teeth look perfectly normal. He regularly chews on apple orchard sticks, do those have calcium? Also, he has salt blocks that he chews on.

We take him to A-4 animal hospital for his regular check-ups and meds, but for his two surgeries we drove him to Omaha to Doctor Bosilevac at Best Care Pet Hospital because he had done the surgery before.

I'm still just stumped on whether or not to just have the stones removed again or try that other surgery. (The vet in Omaha seems pretty confident that he can do it successfully.) We have already changed around so many things and for him to get three more stones in a matter of two months it doesn't seem like changing one more thing is going to make a difference. It seems like he is just genetically predisposed to produce excess calcium. But, we can't stand to see him continue to have problems so we are willing to try anything!

 

[InkedupTara]

What about a non alfalfa based pellet? Someone I know has a chin with stones and they switched the pellets to a timmy based pellet.

 

[ticklechin]

He is on a low calcium timothy pellet the OP stated.


When you say he drinks alot, how much are we talking about? Has the vet thought about checking him for diabetes? Does his breath smell sweet? There is a correlation between diabetes and bladder stones in humans, wonder about it in chins.

 

[InkedupTara]

My apologies I missed that. I hope these ladies can find something to help you.

 

[moon]

I can't offer any more help on the stones than has already been given, but he does not need salt chews. I'm not sure if they are calcium based or not.

 

[Bostongirl'sChin75]

I am not sure as to what could be the cause of the stones, but I have heard that chinchillas do not need salt blocks to chew on.

I hope your little guy pulls through for you!

 

[ticklechin]

Salt licks are used by the rabbit people on rabbits with stones and sludge, they encourage water intake so the lick is not unheard of in this situation to use.

 

[Riven]

It seems like he is just genetically predisposed to produce excess calcium.

Chins ( or any animals ) don't produce calcium, they have to get it in their diet.

It's possibly a hormone imbalance, hormones of the brain produce calcitonin, which tell the body to put calcium into the bones to store it. So right now a logical question is, what do his teeth look like. What color are his front teeth?
That helps tell you how much calcium his body is storing.

Again, with my personal experience, I will never put an animal through a uerthostomy again, cats show pain, chins don't. I'd spend the rest of it's life worrying that it's in severe pain and just doesn't show it.
Like wise you end up possibly needing repeated surgeries if you don't... Those have to be choices you make.

You also have other things to consider like phosphorus and vit. D, it works with calcium for the body to store calcium. Without them the body can't store it, you'll end up with a calcium deficiency and the body has to pass it out through the bladder because it can't use it in it's raw form.

Sorry, there isn't an easy answer for this. But do let us know about the color of his incisors, that will get an insight to how much calcium his body is storing.

 

[Bostongirl'sChin75]

Salt licks are used by the rabbit people on rabbits with stones and sludge, they encourage water intake so the lick is not unheard of in this situation to use.

Never thought of that..sorry bout that! It does make logical sense though!

 

[dozier0708]

We finally had surgery today to remove the stones. During the surgery they noticed that his prostate was really swollen. The vet asked us whether he had been ejaculating. That is one thing that we have been wondering about and really don't know too much about. As far as we know he has never ejaculated. The vet said that the infections from the prostate could be causing the formation of the stones and thats why the baytril we had been giving him wasn't working. They went ahead an neutered him during the surgery.

As far as right now, he is waking up from his surgery and has to have another small procedure tomorrow morning. I guess it has something to do with the neutering. Hopefully everything goes well again tomorrow and we finally found the source of the stones. Hopefully!!!!!!

 

[Bostongirl'sChin75]

We have crossed paws here that everything goes alright and that the little guy heals quickly!