Pedigreed Breeders

[Riven]

I just wanted to post my thoughts. A lot of time and effort goes into telling people they should not breed non-pedigreed chins. Although this depends on the situation IMO, if I got a very nice chin who's ped was lost... to me that's different, and there are situations such as an older rancher dies, maybe the children don't know and sell them out, or whatever.

Anyway, that's another story. I wanted to give my opinion here as well that just because a chin HAS a pedigree... does not mean it SHOULD be bred!

I think a lot of people put too much emphasis on pedigrees for breeding, as if it is an unwavering rule.

Don't get me wrong, pedigrees are wonderful tools in breeding for obvious reasons, color genetics, line information, etc. A lot of times I will decide what kits I want to keep just from looking at the pedigrees when they're born. But... I do not believe that a pedigree is a say all, end all. Any good rancher will tell you that you can put two grand show's together and get crap every time.

Just my thought for the new year...

 

[saphire]

I agree that, not because it has a ped it should be bred (that's why they are sold as pets).

For myself the ped is important for follow up on health issues if it occurs.
I also do not want to breed sibblings, so how would I know without the peds.
I also appreciate knowing who is and are the breeders in it's line.

Breeding my animals is a question of not only the outside qualities but the inside also.

I have two beautiful standards that where given to me as pets, would absolutly love to breed them, but they come from a petstore. So it's a no no for me.

Personnally, I would not feel comfortable breeding blindly.

 

[starleomach]

I have a few from a rancher that I trust with little to no pedigree, I feel comfortable with them. I also have a few pedigreed more than the royal family...They are pets at my mom's house..breeding wise not worth the paper their pedigree was written on...not to say they aren't priceless as pets. Pedigrees do not mean breedable.

 

[mishalaa]

I don't think I've read anywhere that a pedigree equals good for breeding, though I have no doubt that some people interpret that. To that end, there's just as much energy spent saying having a pedigree does NOT necessarily mean breedable as there is spent saying a breeder should be pedigreed.

To wit, in simple logic:
All breeders should be pedigreed. *
Not all pedigreed should be bred.

* As stated previously, exceptions can be made at the discretion of the breeder. I bought a "lost pedigree" female, didn't even know which ranch she originally came from, but she has good size and conformation and paired with a complimentary male, she threw me a champion sapphire. Because she was sold to me as a sapphire carrier, which proved true, I was certain she had been pedigreed and therefore was as likely free from genetic health concerns as you can expect out of pedigreed chins. Otherwise I would not have used her.

 

[Jazicat]

When we got Edgar we talked to our breeder for a long time and I think that any chinchilla that is going to be breed should be evaluated by someone who is an expert. If you are inexperienced take it to a show and have it looked at by people who know.

I've read Edgar's pedigree and he has a standard grey that has no pedigree as a great grandparent. Since the grandparents were Somavia bred/ owned I have to think that standard had something that was lacking in the line. However I would never breed a chinchilla without a pedigree and some really good advice from my breeder and anyone else I could ask.

Having bragged about Edgar's pedigree we have decided not to breed him. It's tempting to show him and see if he is of the quality that could be bred. However I think that breeding takes a lot of knowledge and devotion that most of us will never spend the time to be.

 

[Riven]

Now... something I didn't mention previously, but many, MANY of large ranchers has cashed in on the pet market, ranches who produce 2000 chins don't have room to hold everything, and therefore, chins from a pet store could possibly have some of the best lines, better than some peoples herds... I just wanted to toss this out there because I've heard many people suggest ( even about their own chins ) that they are not as "good" because they are from a pet store. I'm not saying everyone should go out and buy pet store chins and breed them, usually you can get them from a breeder cheaper anyway!

Knowledge is power, and this is the reason for pedigrees being important in breeding.

Random thoughts for the day, I'm full of them.

 

[saphire]

Now... something I didn't mention previously, but many, MANY of large ranchers has cashed in on the pet market, ranches who produce 2000 chins don't have room to hold everything, and therefore, chins from a pet store could possibly have some of the best lines, better than some peoples herds... I just wanted to toss this out there because I've heard many people suggest ( even about their own chins ) that they are not as "good" because they are from a pet store. I'm not saying everyone should go out and buy pet store chins and breed them, usually you can get them from a breeder cheaper anyway!

Knowledge is power, and this is the reason for pedigrees being important in breeding.

Random thoughts for the day, I'm full of them.[/QUOTE



Absolutely true, although, it can also be from the backyard breeder that was just lucky to have this one time an outstanding in all the litters.

Yap! Knowledge is power, and this is the reason for pedigrees being important in breeding.

 

[RDZCRanch]

Absolutely true, although, it can also be from the backyard breeder that was just lucky to have this one time an outstanding in all the litters.

Yap! Knowledge is power, and this is the reason for pedigrees being important in breeding.

Not many of the chins in big chain pet stores are going to be from backyard breeders...if any of them are from backyard breeders. You have to have a wholesale license to sell animals to pet stores. Mom and Pop pet stores don't care and will get their animals from any breeder they want and just lie but big chains go through wholesalers who almost always get animals from big ranchers because it's easier, cheaper and more reliable.

Also...I really don't think a physical pedigree is as valuable as knowing the animal and where it came from. Anyone can make up a pedigree...

 

[Riven]

Anyone can make up a pedigree...

And sadly to say I've heard of from reliable sources of "prestigious ranchers" doing that as well to benefit themselves.

 

[saphire]

Unfortunaely, the difference here is that, anyone can walk into a pet store and bring in animals to sell, and many will take them in. They will also go thru wholesalers, and I know who supplies the wholesalers chin wise and other critters which makes them none reliable for. Although there is one wholesaler that cares more.
There is alot of work to be done and the SPCA needs much more support than they are getting from higher levels... but that's another story.

I agree that knowing where your animal is from, is major source of info., and that some pedigrees can be made up for what ever reason.
Somehow I need to trust the people I deal with and hope that they are honest in return, and live up to their repuation. Although there is no garantee.

For myself, I feel the need to have pedigrees for obvious reasons already mentionned, especially if I take several animals from one breeder.
Another reason for being so hung up for pedigrees (even if it's not garanteed to be the one) is that, a major amount of people breed the pet store chins who are supplied by the same breeder who doesn't keep accurate and or detailed records of his animals. These people bring back their kits the the pet stores to be sold. It's a vicious circle. Many die way before there time.

A handful of us up here in our province are trying to educate people, telling them how important it is to not breed the store chins or any animal coming from a pet store at that. We win some and lose some. But the forum is growing.
So I have to practice what I preech, and to keep a clear conscience.

 

[tunes]

I just wanted to toss this out there because I've heard many people suggest ( even about their own chins ) that they are not as "good" because they are from a pet store. I'm not saying everyone should go out and buy pet store chins and breed them, usually you can get them from a breeder cheaper anyway!

If you look at any thread where someone starts babbling about pet store chins being crap that the breeders throw away, you'll find that I've said this for the past 7 or 8 years. Someone decided because one chin had malocclusion, that all chins at pet stores are deliberately bred to have malocclusion and are unhealthy and on death's door. I have explained over and over again how it works with wholesaling and where the animals come from, but you just cannot convince some pet folks who follow certain beliefs. They are convinced that ranchers deliberately breed crap animals for the specific purpose of suplying pet stores.

As far as pedigrees, not a single animal out of the Butler barn comes with a pedigree. I and others have used their animals in breeding for years.

 

[Becky]

Anyone can sell to a pet store. You have to have a license if you sell more than $500 wholesale a year.

 

[RDZCRanch]

And sadly to say I've heard of from reliable sources of "prestigious ranchers" doing that as well to benefit themselves.

I can easily see this happening since so many hobby breeders and pet owners put so much stock in having a pedigree for their chins. For a rancher, unfortunately, their main concern is making money and trying to turn a profit on their herds.

Unfortunately I've seen many more hobby breeders making up pedigrees. I sold a chin to someone on the forum years ago and when she decided to sell of all her chins...many of the animals she got from me suddenly had things in their backgrounds that had not been there before. I've had pet people come to me for a second chin and show me the "pedigree" for their first chin that came from such and such rancher and the cards/paper do not match what I've received or seen that particular rancher give out. It's just amazing what people will do to sell an animal.

 

[mishalaa]

For a rancher, unfortunately, their main concern is making money and trying to turn a profit on their herds.

But not all would falsify a pedigree to do so - just wanted to make that distinction.

 

[Riven]

I've had pet people come to me for a second chin and show me the "pedigree" for their first chin that came from such and such rancher and the cards/paper do not match what I've received or seen that particular rancher give out.

If I put a pedigree in my computer from ABC ranch, then sell that animal, I usually just print the pedigree off, so it would not match what was given to me.

Yes, ranchers want to make money, but they do it with quality animals. Not fake pedigrees. I have people I would get a chin from unpedigreed. And yes, I would, and i have breed animals without pedigrees. I've gotten chins from people who lost the pedigrees, etc. If it is an older animal that is healthy and good quality, I don't see any harm in it. Lines are handy yes, but honestly you tell me how many large ranches would put down an entire line because one person bought a pet from them and it ended up with malo, THEN on top of it notify every person who ever bought a chin out of those lines. Pedigrees are useful, but I don't believe that they are what some people make them out to be, they will not tell you everything about a chin, and unless you know the lines very well that are on the card... chances are they will tell you nothing about health or malo history. It reminds me of the part on Tommy Boy when he's talking to the guy about a guarantee :

Because they know all they sold ya was a guaranteed piece of poo. That's all it is. Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will. I got spare time. But for right now, for your sake, for your daughter's sake, ya might wanna think about buying a quality item from me.

Things are only worth the value you put on them. And like wise I've breed an animal that is not usually the quality I would require... because of it's pedigree, because I knew what was in the lines, and what they could produce, a double edge balde those pedigrees are.

 

[mishalaa]

How much info should be/would you like to see on a pedigree?

 

[RDZCRanch]

Nicole, I completely agree with you...you say it much better than I ever could!:thumbsup:

If I put a pedigree in my computer from ABC ranch, then sell that animal, I usually just print the pedigree off, so it would not match what was given to me.

But you are a reliable source that is known to show your animals and get your animals from a rancher. The pedigrees I was talking about come from people in my area I know to be backyard breeders and are known to "stay away" from ranchers.

 

[Riven]

I know some people like that too. I've also had people ask me if they are like rabbits and you can just "make" a pedigree, and after three generations you'll have a "fully" pedigreed chin.

 

[Terbear24]

I second that original post! And as for making up pedigrees and such I just hope that everyone else out there has as much pride in their herd as i do and wouldnt do anything to comprimise your reputation!

 

[rcr]

I'm sure there are some acceptable chins in pet stores but I still think you would be hard pressed to find the next GSC there. The large ranchers are culling these chins for a reason whether it be size, fur, genetics, ect. It would make sense to me that the nicest furred animals that aren't being put into breeding are sold as pelts vs. brokering to a pet store. Pet store chins are a gamble, so I would still encourage potential new chin owners to purchase from a reputable breeder before going to a pet store, if for no other reason than having support after bringing their new pet home. All that said, I've seen some gorgeous animals that have come out of rescue situations that were put into breeding but they are few and far between. Lastly, although it may be easy to "fake" a pedigree with a little research, you can usually find out if someone has misrepresented an animal. Just start calling every breeder that's listed on a pedigree. The chin world is small enough that someone who operates dishonestly will usually have a reputation that precedes them.