Metacam long term?

[ticklechin]

Did the vet ever do a full body x-ray? From the rest of your description it does sound like something is going on in his GI tract. Does his poo smell? Have you ever seen poo that looks like swiss cheese holes? Crack open his next weird poo and see if it is hollow, smells or is swiss cheese like. Also, I think if this was my chin I would give 20ml a day of the CC to supplement his feeding-10 ml in the AM and 10ml in the evening, its good for the digestive tract if the digestive tract is irritated, and I think I would dose him twice a day with simethicone, one full dropper in the AM and one in the PM, simethicone is "inert", it stays in the digestive tract and is not absorbed, so you cannot really overdose or overmedicate him with it. I am just going with my gut reading what you are describing.

 

[Etherite]

I have had poos that smell insanely bad, like.. fish, but not in at least a couple weeks. Was when they were.. I don't even wanna call them runny, it was just.. smushy? They'd pile up like something you'd expect from a horse or something. Just.. a pile. The issue with giving him multiple feedings and simethicone is that I only get help with him once a day, and it's nearly impossible for me to do it solo. He's extremely feisty and either burrows or pushes his way out of a burrito-wrap. I've wasted many doses spraying it over his shoulder trying to get it in him alone.

Also yep the x-ray was full body. The only abnormality in his guts were large gas pockets.

I can try to give him more simethicone and CC, but I can tell you now I probably won't have much success, and stress him out big time. By one dropper do you mean like.. 0.1mL, one drop? The stuff I have is extra strength too, so.. yeah. I can try. He's not very bloaty but I suppose it'd keep him from getting bloaty.

Past couple hours he's been very lethargic.. Hopefully I'll be awake enough to let him free-range tonight so that'll help him out.

 

[ticklechin]

USA simethicone is 20mg, I give a full dropper which is like 1 ml? every 4 hours if I am dealing with gas. Smelly poo is infection, he also sounds like he has gas. I would try to get the simethicone in him and the CC. You can't overdose simethicone which he sounds like he may need and it can't hurt to give him.

 

[Etherite]

The simethicone I have is 180g in a gel cap so I just squeeze a pill out into a syringe and give him a single drop. I think I'm just gonna look for a different form of simethicone. He absolutely hates this. Just now when I looked at the box he ran over to me (He hears a box, a bag, anything, he thinks it's treats) starts doing that.. grabs at the air begging, I show him a pill and he wipes at his face and runs away. The smelly poo is long gone so hopefully the infection is as well. That was when he was still on baytril, too. I'll try to do another feeding tonight but might have to wait until I can get a simethicone in.. solid pill form.

 

[Etherite]

Wanted to edit, but it wont let me. He's been sneezing/snuffling. Today, I think it's just cause he got a dust bath but in general, he's been sneezing a lot since this all started. Any ideas on how that could be related?

 

[ChilliPepper]

sorry for the confusion, did not mean for that to happen, my brain was exhausted. He was happy, but he was in pain and his last xray had shown root elongation, so I knew that it was only a matter of time before I would have to make that choice. His last filings were a month apart and the last one, he had a hard time coming out of the anesthesia. When even with 2 full doses of metacam daily and 5 feedings daily of 20 or more ccs each time, he was still not gaining weight or even trying to eat on his own. He would still gobble up his mush, but it was taking him longer to eat it, and he would run off and paw at his mouth and squeak. And he was drooling. So much drool. It was a terrible decision to have to make, but it was the right one. His spirit was willing but the body was done. I don't believe in keeping an animal alive till the bitter end. I had it within my power to end his suffering, even though he was still doing all the chinnie things. Malo is a progressive disease and eventually we have to do that. Every owner knows their pet best. I knew that based on his last 3 years of history and how he had responded to treatment thus far, that it was time.
Now, the issue at hand. Sorry you were confused. What I meant was that I used it for 3 years with no ill effects. I think you will be ok with only a month of use. In fact, I took the human form for 6 weeks after nothing else was getting my back inflammation down that would allow me to also work.
The simethicone- are you finding the baby one? It comes in liquid form since babies can't swallow pills. Hopefully you can find that kind.
Chillis poos were different on the CC, and depending on how runny it was, they were squishier too. They looked almost grainy.
I am sorry you are having so much trouble with your guy. I would hold off the dust baths for a few days and see how that does for him sneezing.

 

[ChilliPepper]

Tell us about his cage and room he is in.

 

[Etherite]

Thank you for clearing things up. Definitely doesn't sound bad anymore.. I know a lot of people will disagree with me, but I kind of am a 'to the bitter end' person. I love animals more than people, and it'd only be assisted suicide with consent, he can't give me consent. I'd only see it as a horrible murder I'd never be able to forgive myself for, suffering or not. If it comes down to weeks upon weeks and I absolutely cannot get it back under control, I'll try to come to terms with the thought, but as it is I still can't.

I'm up at 4:30am right now because he's acting a bit odd, making me worry. Earlier he started showing some slight signs of his illness again so I gave him an extra drop of metacam, hoping it'd help him out a little bit until his next dose. If I can get the doctor to agree to long term, I might ask for 0.35mL, I'm not sure. 0.3mL works perfectly for the first 12 hours, but then seems to wear off. Don't rodents go through medications twice as fast, thus usually having to 12hr interval medications? But then he'd be on 0.6mL a day and that's way too much.. I can't give him 0.15mL every 12hr because I've done that before and it didn't work in the slightest.

It's getting more and more frustrating keeping on top of this.. I've had at least 5 severe panic attacks over the past two months and I can't even get more of my own anxiety medication. @_@

ANYWHO. His cage is a 5 1/2 level plastic superpet cage. I know a lot of chinchilla-fanatics think people who use plastic cages are evil, and after seeing what the younger two I used to have did to their superpet cage.. ehhh, yeah I'd kind of agree. I had to replace all the levels with kiln pine. Boo's is still fine though, he's not a chewer, plastic works for him. The room is my bedroom, he goes freerange quite often because he's extremely trained. Not that he really listens to me, but he won't pee outside his house or bite wires.

Like I said, I logged on at this hour because I'm worried. He's whimpering a little bit and.. 'sneezing', watching him more I don't even know what to call it. Sometimes it's a sneeze, sometimes it's a half-sneeze. You know when you kind of sneeze but end up just.. flubbering? It's like that. Beginning to really convince myself it's some kind of cancer. He just has too many symptoms for it to be anything simple.

-Also, I did a check on his.. y'know. I didn't grab him, but he decided he'd whip it out and go to town, so I grabbed a flashlight and creeped a little. Was all the way out and I didn't see a single hair, but he still won't put it in all the way. Oh well, at least I know there's nothing there I need to worry about. Now my main concern is figuring out why he's so insanely itchy. He gets so upset scratching himself.. I've checked his skin, it seems normal. I might end up uploading a dozen or so pictures of him, maybe that would help out? I can also try asking my vet for a copy of that x-ray but he might find that insulting. I'm worried enough saying "Hey, can I go against your instruction and put him on metacam daily? I don't trust your judgement or medical experience." (Of course I have to figure out a way to BS that sentence up and make myself sound nice)

 

[ticklechin]

The Veterinary Formulary states that metecam should be given once a day, my vet who has 100s of chins as patients doses it twice a day since that gives the best result as it does wear off fast in chins in my experience and I don't even know if it is approved for chins nor if there have been actually any studies on metecam in chins on its duration or effect, I doubt it.

 

[ticklechin]

I also think you should run the symptoms again by the vet even though he is a dimwit, tell him about the smelly poo, the snuffling, the response to high doses of metecam, the reaction when the gut is touched, the lethargy and ask what should be done next. If this was my chin I would want it back on a antibiotic more appropriate for the gut such as flagyl and I would use it with baytril, both together work well since they treat both anerobic and anaerobic bacteria to knock out whatever is going on, URIs happen to chins who are already knocked down for whatever reason immune system wise-its common as a example in malo chins. I also wonder if the chin should have had a fecal float-giarrdia or another parasite out of control can cause some nasty eneteritis and all that bad bacteria in there causes contant gas and other issues.

 

[Saffron]

The simethicone I have is 180g in a gel cap so I just squeeze a pill out into a syringe and give him a single drop. I think I'm just gonna look for a different form of simethicone. He absolutely hates this. Just now when I looked at the box he ran over to me (He hears a box, a bag, anything, he thinks it's treats) starts doing that.. grabs at the air begging, I show him a pill and he wipes at his face and runs away. The smelly poo is long gone so hopefully the infection is as well. That was when he was still on baytril, too. I'll try to do another feeding tonight but might have to wait until I can get a simethicone in.. solid pill form.

Instead of simethicone for adults, look for simethicone for infants (infants' gas relief drops), unflavored if you can find it. It's a thick liquid and both of my chins love it, they think it's a treat.


The only way one of our chins will eat Critical Care is if I mix in a little canned pumpkin (not pumpkin pie filling). Then she'll eat it without having to burrito her. Your chin may like the CC better with a dab of pumpkin. Also, when I syringe feed I'll add Bene-Bac to a feeding once every other day.

You may want to try the Critical Care fine grind if your vet carries it. Evidently it tastes different than regular CC because both of our girls love it.
No problem getting them to eat it.

 

[Etherite]

Tickle- I've run the symptoms by my vet, he thinks the next step is a throat scope. He's still focusing on the breathing over the gut. I mean the fact that he starts sounding like a duck-bullfrog crossbreed without metacam makes me think the throat too, but I'll try talking to him again. I just can't afford another visit. And, last night when I used about.. 0.05~mL of metacam on him 12hr after his full dose, it did seem to help.

Saffron- I'll look around for a new simethicone, but the one I have now is also a thick unflavored and unscented liquid and he won't even come near it. If they have it in pill form, which I doubt, I'll give it a try. Either way I need to find a new simethicone. Part two, I can't do either of those things. I haven't tried pumpkin, but his digestive system is so delicate right now that a single unsweetened cheerio throws him off, back into a sad, wheezy lethargy. I'd imagine pumpkin has sugars in it even without them added, but I can at the very least take a look. About the CC, I doubt it. You could easily compare my vet to a cave. They're lucky to have the scarce resources they do have, and it ain't much.

 

[ticklechin]

That is what chins sound like when they have a URI, they even look like frogs the way they heave when breathing and they honk-I have heard it a few times with malo chins that are prone to URIs. IMO, the chin has two infections going on-the gut due to the smelly poo and lungs due to the honking and lethargy and like I said, chins who have a knocked down immune system from another reason easily contract URIs. The metecam is a anti-inflammatory and not just a pain med so both those organs would benefit from its use, but this is getting serious with the honking and IMO again, the chin needs to be on antibiotics stat since URIs can take down a chin fast.

 

[smhufflepuff]

With Texie (hedgie; not chin), I used a pediatric simethicone... Came in a little bottle with a dropper. It was intended for babies. Tasted pretty decent (yes, I tried it just to see). You might try looking in the baby section among the little nail clippers, thermometers, and diaper rash ointments if you can't find any in the regular pharmacy section.

ETA: The "hedgie; not chin" comment was to indicate that I have no idea about the pros and cons of simethicone in a chin... Just that, if it's the thing to do, I know where to find a version that's different than what you've tried so far.

Sending positive vibes to you and your little one.

 

[Claire D]

That is what chins sound like when they have a URI, they even look like frogs the way they heave when breathing and they honk-I have heard it a few times with malo chins that are prone to URIs. IMO, the chin has two infections going on-the gut due to the smelly poo and lungs due to the honking and lethargy and like I said, chins who have a knocked down immune system from another reason easily contract URIs. The metecam is a anti-inflammatory and not just a pain med so both those organs would benefit from its use, but this is getting serious with the honking and IMO again, the chin needs to be on antibiotics stat since URIs can take down a chin fast.

I'm going to second Tickle's post here - I've read through this thread several times now and I appreciate your situation (money, vet etc) but your chin sounds like he is in all sorts of trouble. I'm afraid the only way to go now is back to the vet.

 

[Claire D]

How is the chin doing today?

 

[Etherite]

I'm not putting him back on antibiotics when he's already had a full scan of his lungs taken and was told he doesn't have a URI. Especially since the only option he was willing to give me is baytril and that really seemed to hurt him more. Today I talked to the vet again and I'm even more frustrated with the situation. I listened to you guys, and told him I've been researching things and talked to people who have used metacam first hand, since there's no medical documentation on chinchillas and metacam long term. He said "Well these are breeders, not vets. Rats are similar to chinchillas so they take testing done from rats and say the same for chinchillas. It sounds like you're not happy with what I'm doing and maybe you'd be better off seeing someone else." Mhm, after he's openly admit there's no option for me to see someone else. Also openly admitting that apparently making BS up about what metacam will do to a chinchilla, when done by a vet, should be taken more seriously than a breeder who has DONE THIS, AND HAS EXPERIENCE. He's making a waiver up for me to sign, and maybe next month if Boo is still alive I'll have more testing done with my GST.. but he told me "Blood work might be the next step, but maybe it's not, it might not show us aything" and told me that "His condition isn't confusing, we just haven't seen enough yet" ... Even though I was the one trying to convince him to do blood work a while ago, the one who keeps telling him what he's like at home but he won't believe me.. I'm so sick of this, absolutely sick of this. Even if I had a limitless amount of money, what then? He's so confident that the fault is on my part, yet equally confident they probably won't find anything. If he only listened to me and did the testing when I had money, instead of just taking my 60 dollars for a "Oh he's okay" check-up every couple days..

Boo's condition is still going downhill, I'm pretty much just coming to accept he's going to die soon, because the metacam is just a bandaid, the 3-billion other OTC drugs he's on aren't changing his condition any, baytril hurt him, he won't give me options, there's no vet options, and even if there WERE vet options, that money-boat sailed months ago. Because of this, there's literally no Christmas this year, just barely a rent payment. Our credit cards are now declined and we only have a bunch of old condiments and kraft dinner in the fridge. It's not a pity party, I just really apparently need to drive the "We don't have the option to take him to a new vet and have a bunch of testing" thing home. It's THAT bad. I can't even afford my own medication anymore and I'm in Canada, so that's saying something right there. It's been upwards of 1000 dollars in testing that has gone NO WHERE. If I found a different vet, or maybe some kind of conclusion a while ago, then I would be extremely open to new possibilities.

So I'll take your opinions. If he's still alive when I get my GST.. what should I have done? Blood work, or a different scan? I wish I lived in America.. I'd be giving blood donations for cash.

PS- His condition is about the same, but you can tell it's going downhill. A few more squeaks here and there, sleeping in odd areas. I just know.

 

[Etherite]

I think I scared everyone off, but I feel like I need to update his status. He's been having more ups and downs, mostly ups until today. He keeps sneezing, and he wont stop chewing his cage. I give him anything I can for him to chew on that he should be chewing on but he shoves it away and keeps chewing plastic. I never had problems with having a plastic cage up until now, and I can't really replace it. I might try slathering it with lemon juice or something, I heard that keeps some chinchillas from chewing bad things.

I've been giving him a bit more food, and simethicone daily, and he suddenly bloated into a soccer ball again, causing him to squeak and wheeze. I really do think it's the simethicone doing it (This time, anyway), even though that's the opposite of what it's supposed to do. It's just the only thing that's changed, so I'm going to stop and see if he improves.

His poop is absolutely massive, not smelly, normal color, but it's huge. He'll also occasionally have a few really pale, abnormal colored ones. Grayish green, dry. I cut it open like it was suggested and nothing really stood out. If there were holes in it they were too small to notice. He only gives me 2-3 abnormal ones then they go back to being dark and normal to large.

He's also drinking about twice as much as he used to, I know everyone will see this as a good thing, but I see it as an oddity. It could be metacam related, like it's taking a slight toll on his system or something.. Haven't been able to keep tabs on his urine because lately he's been a good boy going in the bedding on the bottom floor.

Sorry for the big rant from before, I just get mad every time 'vet' is mentioned now because I really wish I could.

 

[ChilliPepper]

Any updates?

 

[Etherite]

Lately he's been doing pretty great. Again, still not 'better', but he's very stable. He can't go free-range or run in his wheel anymore because he starts to wheeze within seconds but refuses to slow down. So.. I'm making him a new place to explore in my semi-walk-in closet. It's like.. 6 feet squared or so, making ramps and planks and cozy hideyholes. Something to keep him entertained. So far.. he's not so impressed with it.

I'm trying to figure out what I can give him as 'treats'. I've been giving him tiny bits of crackers or a tiny salt lickin off my fingers.. and a dried mint leaf. I'd like to be able to give him more herbs, anything without sugar, and.. something that isn't poison to a chinchilla. He's still on his pepcid and CC, and only has bad days when I give him something that has sugar in it and I didn't know. Like those stupid vitamins. 90% Pineapple powder! Pfff.

When he was severely ill a long, long time ago, I ended up giving him a very tiny bit of a human centrum multivitamin every day and it seemed to help bounce him back. I might resort to that eventually but right now I wont mess with what's working.

Any creative treat ideas?