Isn't chinchilla.com's monopoly illegal?

[chin_gal]

I always thought holding a monopoly was illegal? How do they get away with what they are doing with the angoras? It really bugs me, are they EVER going to allow us to purchase them? I don't want one, but the idea of what they are doing just seems criminal to me. *shrugs*

 

[threewingedfury]

Though this may be considered a monopoly, I don't really find it one or find it illegal. I think that a breeder should have the right to sell to whom they wish. The way I see it - there is no other breeder who has produced an angora other than this one person out of TX (well, other than those overseas who now have their offspring). It's not like they're buying out all of the angora animals from other breeders and saying "you can't sell these, I'm the only one who can breed and sell them outside of the US". Yes, they're controlling the US market when it comes to the angoras, but that's really their choice. There isn't any other competition. I don't see them being released in the US any time soon.

 

[Riven]

Nothing illegal about it, it's not a monopoly. .com doesn't breed the chins they just sell them.

Lets say that I have a new chin color pop up in my herd, I have the right to sell it to whomever I choose to, or refuse sale to anyone I choose.

It is like an artist choosing to only have his work displayed in one or two galleries, as the creator that is their right.

Angoras are just chins with really long fur, I'd actually guess that with selective breeding and a lot of time anyone could achieve it, although it is claimed to actually be a mutation.

 

[Riven]

Okay, I was just looking at .com and noticed something I've never seen discussed about the "royal angoras" before. While looking at them, and their faces which they tout as being "appealing", I realized they actually looked dwarfish, thinking this might be just because of the long fur, I began looking at weights, and in all 6 of the animals that I looked at all were over, or nearly a year old, and most were under 600 grams, with one or two being right above, but below 610 grams.

 

[threewingedfury]

Have you ever seen or touched one? I checked out a few over the summer and there's not much to them. Yeah, they're cute, but they're little shrimps. They're much smaller than they may appear with all the fur. They look heavy, but they reminded me of 4-5 month old growers. I would have to say that it's definitely a mutation, as it wouldn't be difficult to breed longer furred animals, but their fur just isn't anywhere near the fur of our show chins. The fur is extremely soft, yet also jagged, if not almost curly in some spots. They're not very dense at all, the fur just kinda flies.

 

[chin_gal]

By definition that is a monopoly. Even if it's not .com, the breeder is guitly of the same exact thing. I just don't agree with it. It's greediness. Plain and simple. Sure they can sell to whoever they want, but to specifically exclude a whole continent is terribly extreme.

 

[Riven]

As a breeder I enjoy my right to not have to sell to anyone who walks by. I'm not a pet store. Greedy or not, that is still their right. I don't have a starbucks in town, so the local coffee shop must have a monopoly...

The definition of a monopoly is : one group or company having complete control over a product or service.

They do not have complete control since they are selling the animals, just not in the US. It's no different than a company saying we'll sell out ziggy bots in the stores, but if you want the Xtreme Ziggy Bot, it's only carried at THIS store. It's just a chin, they aren't saying no one can buy chins, they're just limiting the sales of this "model" of chin. Not a monopoly.

 

[chin_gal]

Ok, but you having the right to deny a sale and this are two different things. I never said you had to sell to everyone that walks by, but to outright say if you are a North American, you cannot have this product? See, the difference is, if I wanted said product at that different shop, I could order it and have it sent in. You not having a starbucks has absolutely nothing to do with any of this, that is rediculous. Are they prohibited from OPENING a starbucks? No...

I'm just saying that it just doesn't seem right. So according to you, if someone doesn't want to sell to someone that is of a different race, that's fine too? It's their right to sell to who they want to, right? Because I believe that too is illegal. I don't think it's right that only because I happen to be a North American, I am prohibited from buying a product.

I mean, come on here. We're not talking about sales regarding the well being of an animal, we're talking about geography!

 

[tunes]

Whether you get pissed off about it or not doesn't matter. Bottom line is CCCU produces these chins, and THEY have final say on where they are sold. If they want to be greedy, more power to them. It's their breeding stock, their resources, their time that went into "creating" this mutation and furthering it. If they want to make money hand over fist on them - that's their business. Don't think that other breeders here within the US weren't just as greedy and hoarding of any new mutation they developed. Of course the bottom line is to get as much money as they can. In case you didn't realize, their chins are a business. They aren't breeding cute little fuzzy wuzzies so that Susie Q down the street can have the latest and greatest at a cheap price.

Do I think their prices are stupid? Yes. But then again, I think it's stupid that someone asks for, and gets, $700.00 for a nasty furred, ratty looking beast of a chin because it has a spot on it's left hip, therefore making it an "extreme mosaic."

Personally, I'm glad they aren't here yet. It would be just another thing for people with more money than sense to buy, have no clue about, and start breeding the piss out of and ruining, just like is happening with regular furred chins.

 

[chin_gal]

Ok, I do understand all of that. But my question was the legality of it all? How exactly isn't this a monopoly? Maybe I'm just not getting it.

 

[jags]

People may think they are over priced but when you consider the number of years of hard work and expenses it has taken them to even get a few chins to the market then add into it the fact that they only get a percentage and I see the cost as reasonable compared to other products. Would I pay the price for one even if available here? No as I see no real long term money making in them once they are available here in North America which is why they are not selling them here. I saw them when they first started trying to improve them and they have come a long way from then. Sell them here in the states and all their hard work will be undone in a very short while as some people would not breed them to better them.

 

[chin_gal]

I guess I see your point, but I still feel at that price mostly responsible/serious breeders would be purchasing them. And who's to say they're being bred responsibly where they are being purchased? Or it wouldn't matter since it's not messing with their market?

Now, what if you had someone who lived outside of NA purchase one, and ship it back to you? Would that be illegal? Don't they still have ways of making it back over to north america?

 

[RDZCRanch]

I guess I see your point, but I still feel at that price mostly responsible/serious breeders would be purchasing them. And who's to say they're being bred responsibly where they are being purchased? Or it wouldn't matter since it's not messing with their market?

Now, what if you had someone who lived outside of NA purchase one, and ship it back to you? Would that be illegal? Don't they still have ways of making it back over to north america?

They do...which is another reason this is not monopolizing. Once the product leaves their facility they no longer have control over it. Since so many angoras HAVE left their facility they do not have total control so they are not monopolizing. You are confusing what you see as "wrong" with "illegal." Just because something is stupid and we don't agree with it (obviously no one agrees with the high prices on .com) does not make it illegal.

It is illegal to hire someone based on ethnicity, race, gender, etc. Business's have the right to refuse sale to anyone. You can see these signs posted in almost every business around the country. Raising and selling chinchillas is a business so we reserve the right to refuse sale to anyone we don't like. I can refuse to sell to someone because of ethnicity...because of the simple fact that I don't HAVE to sell the animals in general. When I choose to sell it I can choose which prospective buyer I want to have that product.

 

[chin_gal]

Just because something is stupid and we don't agree with it (obviously no one agrees with the high prices on .com) does not make it illegal.

Well, I know that! I just had my thoughts of a monopoly confused, and indeed thought it was illegal, along with being unfair. I still don't think it's fair, but I at least understand a bit more now.

 

[Riven]

To ASSUME that no one else in North America has any is probably false anyway, you'd be surprised at what is hiding in some people's herds.

For years no one even knew they had them, why, because of crap like this, people criticizing, and millions of emails each day from someone who just HAS to have it and wants one REEAAAALLLY bad.

I have the right not to sell to anyone, that includes all of North America, South America, Europe... I could have a clause that says I will only sell to people who live in my town, or in Anchorage Alaska, that's my right.

 

[Chibigirl]

This may be a completely different topic but, Riven when you mentioned about their faces looking dwarfed and that at over a year old their weights were 600 or under, is that a low weight for a chin that age? I know in other animals dwarfism has been associated with some different mutations in their genetics, that would be interesting if this was the case with these chins. Is there a debate over whether this is a mutation or just selective breeding?

 

[Riven]

I don't know if there is a debate or not regarding mutation vs. breeding, I do know that fur length is affected by selective breeding, but I do not know to what extent, such as if similar results could be achieved by selective breeding for sure or not. .com calls it a mutation. I have not done a lot of research on them, so I will be the first to admit I'm no expert on them.

Unless a chin had some other outstanding attributes, that is usually a low weight. Some people will not bred anything under 600 grams, some don't put weight into the equation. I did not look at weight until I began seeing the dwarf like faces time and time again, which according to them is common with the strain. Notice the flat forehead and smooshed nose, commonly noted in a brevy type animal, which is also usually large.

In reference to Jags comment though, I know very much how much work goes into working with a mutation, etc. BUT that is something you know going into working with a rare mutation. It reminds me of a recent deal with my SIL, my husband used to have a parrot, he gave her the parrot on the condition that if she sold it he got half. Well she sold it, and then my FIL was trying to tell him he shouldn't get anything because "all of the food and stuff" they'd put into her. She did not have a large cage, she didn't have toys or anything like that except when I brought some over for her, she was never to the vet or anything like that either. Basically all they bought her since he had her was food, the cheap walmart kind... Under this theory my horse should be worth much more now, because of all the work and food I've put into her. Also my car should be worth MUCH more than I bought it for, even though it was brand new, because I've put a lot of gas and oil and filters into it, not to mention a mass air flow sensor, O2 sensor, and new plugs, oh and tires... and car washes... and it's due for shocks, struts and brakes too... I'm guessing the value is running about 60K by now.

The price they get is because they can, it's a simple matter of supply and demand.

 

[alpayton]

...The price they get is because they can, it's a simple matter of supply and demand.

And if they choose where their chins are purchased, they keep the price high by limiting the supply. Simple economics.

 

[jags]

Ah but you are so right they put their time and money into something people are willing to pay a great deal for. As for your car, if its like mine, just because I put a lot of time and money into just keeping it running does not mean that any one would want it, yet alone pay a great deal for it.

 

[seachin]

Okay, so my understanding of a monopoly really comes down to whether or not the company in question is actively making it impossible or unfairly difficult for a competitor to sell a similar product.

By this description, this .com is not a monopoly just because they are choosing to export their chins to other countries and not the US. This does not prohibit these angora chins from being imported back into the states, you just have to pay an exorbitant amount of money and then work on breeding them bigger and with better fur quality so they would be taken seriously here. The .com is not preventing any breeder in the US from doing this, and thus, is not a monopoly.