Is putting a chinchilla in a show HUMANE?

[Anniemarie89]

OK -- I'm sorry, but I've been searching through some user's websites on this forum, and though I'm no expert on chinchillas, I'm getting thoroughly disgusted with breeders and people that place chinchillas in shows/competitions. How is this any better than a science experiment or producing chinchillas for fur and profit? What's the difference between a chinchilla that stays its whole life in a tiny cage, or one that spends a short amount of life in a tiny cage and gets murdered for fur. They both make the owner a profit, only difference is one's suffering is more horrific and one's suffering is longer.

I know this sounds like I'm attacking large-scale breeders... but I just am getting more and more sad the more I read. I'm sorry, but I can't accept an excuse like, "it's a misconception that chinchillas need to run to be happy," HELLO, have you looked at their hind legs? Those legs are made for running and jumping! I don't care HOW long they've lived in a cage, what they're used to... if you think that letting your chinchillas run free is going to cause them to get sick, maybe you should rethink owning so many chinchillas for profit. People that breed chinchillas on a large scale like that can't possibly enjoy the company of a chinchilla, as they barely interact with them.

It seems like some sick science experiment to me.. what mix of colors can I get from breeding so and so with so and so? It's like growing a mutated flower. The thing that is MOST disturbing to me is that at these shows the chinchillas are kept in cages with no water bottles, no hay, no soft floors, their cages are hoisted in the air, poked at... I'm not kidding you, THE WHOLE REASON I posted this was because I saw a picture of a man dangling a chinchilla by the tail and SHOVING A QTIP UP A CHINCHILLAS rear end or girly parts, I really didn't look closely enough to distinguish. I'm sorry.... are we now breeding chinchillas for better vagina depth or something?

I was just reading a forum where many, many people were talking about how "OK" it is to own so many chinchillas, how certain people are good chinchilla breeders... etc. I got my Benjamin from a vet who specialized in chinchillas, she maybe had 20 adults, and they were in cages with only two levels and I thought THAT was a little much, and felt bad for the chins being cooped up THERE. Now that I'm seeing what's going on with owners of more than 20 chins... WOW, she was a saint.

My question here is this.. HOW, on this EARTH, in the WORLD is it humane to put a chinchilla in a show? Bred and kept in small cages, transported to shows and packed into smaller cages with no food or water for who knows how long, in a scary area they are not used to, held upside down, prodded with qtips? If someone can prove to me that those chinchillas aren't scared out of their minds, under bright lights, in unfamiliar spaces, with tons of people milling around them, their cages and bodies being flipped around and prodded... maybe I can see the light or something, maybe someone can convince me that these things are OK for chinchillas... until then, I'm going to keep asking myself, how can someone say that putting a chinchilla in a show is humane? How is even breeding chinchillas on such a large scale humane? It just doesn't seem that way.

:cry3:

 

[threewingedfury]

So I guess you're the one that sent me this e-mail just a few minutes ago then:

I've been looking around your site and I'm horribly disappointed in all I see. Levels of sanitation seem adequate and kudos for not leaving bare mesh at the bottom of the cages, but seriously, you're a bad breeder. Where are the external stimuli for these animals? Room for them to act out their natural behaviours? You must know yourself that the lives of these animals must be miserable. My chinchilla - purchased from a decent breeder I full investigated - gets bored in his cage which is six times or more the size of some of the cages your chinchillas are in. This is because no animal is supposed to life a dismal little life in something the size of those cages. Yes, you’re making money from them. You run a business. But these are living animals with mental health to consider as well as physical health, and both go hand in hand.
I doubt you’ll change your practises due to this message, but I just wanted you to know you’re causing suffering. Well done for being an bad person.

I'm not kidding you, THE WHOLE REASON I posted this was because I saw a picture of a man dangling a chinchilla by the tail and SHOVING A QTIP UP A CHINCHILLAS rear end or girly parts, I really didn't look closely enough to distinguish. I'm sorry.... are we now breeding chinchillas for better vagina depth or something?

Yeah I'm pretty sure you saw this on my site. What you saw was swabbing - this is a practice that you use if a female is not producing, as heat plugs become trapped inside of the vaginal walls and the female WILL NOT breed.

I really don't apprecaite how you attacked me, especially by sending me an anonymous e-mail and then putting this out in the open to I guess, try to blast me. I do not have unsanitary cages, nor do I make money. God, I wish I did. I've spent probably $10,000 this year (over $4500 in vet bills alone), and might be lucky if I have made back $1000. I think you need to take a step back and realize where chinchilla breeding started. You wouldn't have your chinchilla now if it wasn't for breeders bringing animals to the US for pelts. They lived in small cages, and got along just fine in them. I'm so glad I'm a bad breeder for trying to improve these animals as far as quality goes.

 

[alli713]

Just as an FYI, this is a pelt neutral forum. If you don't like breeding for pelts, so be it, but it is not debated on this forum.

And, not only large scale breeders show. In fact, I don't breed and I've shown one of my chins. It's not inhumane. I'm not sure what about being at a show itself is actually inhumane?

It's the large breeders that have given us pet chinchillas. And, it's many of those breeders that are breeding healthy, malo-free animals. Not the back yard breeders who never bother to show.

When you breed, whether it be chinchilla, cat, dog, whatever animal, you are breeding for the best of the breed. Each species has it's own standard.

 

[Brittany]

So I guess you're the one that sent me this e-mail just a few minutes ago then:





Yeah I'm pretty sure you saw this on my site. What you saw was swabbing - this is a practice that you use if a female is not producing, as heat plugs become trapped inside of the vaginal walls and the female WILL NOT breed.

I really don't apprecaite how you attacked me, especially by sending me an anonymous e-mail and then putting this out in the open to I guess, try to blast me. I do not have unsanitary cages, nor do I make money. God, I wish I did. I've spent probably $10,000 this year, and might be lucky if I have made back $1000.

I don't know who sent you that email Tiffany but reading it makes me sick. I'm sorry you had to recieve that.

 

[aznmexaggie]

Wow.

At shows I pull the feeders and bottless off the show cage in the morning and they'll get it back later, after the show or when we get home if the show is closeby. You really think everyone is starving and dehydrating their chins for a show?

Have you ever been to a rabbit show? A livestock show? I've shown many animals and yes they are examined and judged or touched. What is wrong with being looked at under a grading light to evaluate the animal?

Also, breeding is NOT throwing mutations together to produce all different colors, thats what he backyard breeders do. If you knew anything about breeding, you'd know thw good breeders have mostly standards and rely on these standards to develop and improve the relatively new mutation colors.

Sorry but this is the most ignorant thread I've seen on here in a long time, made by someone who knows absolutely nothing about the process other than what they "think" they see in pictures.

 

[Anniemarie89]

I don't know who sent you that email Tiffany but reading it makes me sick. I'm sorry you had to recieve that.

OH WHOA! No it must be a huge coincidence, that definitely was not me that emailed you! And actually the picture on the website I was looking at was a male judge swabbing, or male something or other, definitely not a Tiffany. I apologize someone sent you a nasty email, I can assure you I wasn't personally attacking anyone on here. Just a general comment about shows and breeding.

I haven't had a chance to look at and respond to anything else, wanted to firstly throw it out there that I was not the one emailing you... just browsing through websites and getting slightly disgusted with the way these animals are being "humanely" treated.

 

[Christina Noraas]

I've never been to a chinchilla show; but they can't be much different than a county show for like 4-H, not the actual judging part but how they're presented.

With all live stock, possibly with the exception with cattle and horses because you bring them out into an arena to be shown. But the rabbits, the pigs, the goats, the chickens, and any other small live stock, while they are being shown their cages are clean as possible meaning no bedding, no food, or water so that way the animal and it's cage looks presentable and not dirty.

I've been presenting animals in our county and state 4-H programs for years; I know a girl who had been the reigning champion for rabbits because her family breeds them and knows how to breed them to make better quality. However, duirng her little sister's first year showing the rabbits she didn't remove the bedding, water, and food after she had groomed it and what not for judging that day, well of course the rabbit got dirty and she couldn't fix it in time to make it presentable to the judges. I only show cattle but after I bath my cattle for showing I'm not going to bring them back to pen that is dirty, I bring them to a concret slab pen so that way all the muck and bedding I had just cleaned off from them stays off.

It's not as if the animals are sitting there for days on end with out food, water, or some where soft to lay on.

I'm not a breeder, nor do I plan on doing so, so if the following information is wrong someone please correct me.

Breeders bring their chinchillas to the shows to see if they are qualified for breeding and that they will produce better quality babies, rather than just throwing together two chinchillas that could possibly produce babies with defects which could be physical or phsycological (sp) As far as I have been able to understand the point of chinchilla shows are to make sure that they are good, healthy chinchillas. A judge is not going to be pleased with a half starved, dehydrated chinchilla or any animal for that matter.

Honestly, if you think that putting a q-tip in to the chinchilla's vagina is torture what are you going to do if your chinchilla needs to go to the vet and they need a culture (sp) on some fluid that is seeping from your chinchillas vaginal or anal opening? Are you going to deny it because you think it's torture or are you going to allow it to save it's life? It's not as if they're doing it to torture the animal they're doing to make sure that it's healthy.


I doubt any one on this forum would torture a chinchilla or any animal for that matter or sponser/put a website on this forum that did so.

 

[caiti]

It's just as inhumane as 4H shows, or dog shows and the breeding programs behind them.

I have my own opinions about breeding and shows--but I've never been to a show or a chin breeder, my opinions are just about the fundamental concepts of them so they are limited. Maybe if you were to ask for further information and disagreed with people in a calmer manner, someone would engage in a healthy debate about it.

I get this makes you angry and you believe it's immoral--but becoming angry and making people defensive isn't going to help your cause. I appreciate the fact that you put your opinion out there though. If you really want to change things, persuade people, argue your point, go for it (maybe not specific arguments on this forum as it has rules, but I mean in general)--just do it rationally.

 

[Anniemarie89]

Just as an FYI, this is a pelt neutral forum. If you don't like breeding for pelts, so be it, but it is not debated on this forum.

And, not only large scale breeders show. In fact, I don't breed and I've shown one of my chins. It's not inhumane. I'm not sure what about being at a show itself is actually inhumane?

It's the large breeders that have given us pet chinchillas. And, it's many of those breeders that are breeding healthy, malo-free animals. Not the back yard breeders who never bother to show.

When you breed, whether it be chinchilla, cat, dog, whatever animal, you are breeding for the best of the breed. Each species has it's own standard.

I actually can't believe this is a "pelt neutral" forum. That's insane to me. I won't get into debating that, if it's respectful not to debate that then I won't. I'm just in shock. And for the record, all of my dogs are penny saver pups, I don't personally believe in breeding to "improve a breed" or for pedigree or anything of the sort. I say, make an animal happy and you're being a responsible human being. But that's just me. What really, really amazes me is how many people here are OK with breeding chinchillas for SHOW , or PELTS... and not just having them as pets to LOVE. Do we breed dogs for pelts? Would you ever go to a "dog-neutral pelt forum"? I doubt it. Does that make dogs feelings any more important than a chinchillas? I just don't understand. Even at dog shows, they are able to be kept on leashes and walked around, people applaud for them and they love it, they're given food, treats and water... not in tiny cages (for however short a period) in bright, scary lights with tons of people they don't know.

No one has in any which way convinced me that this is humane. I haven't emailed or personally attacked any one user, I can assure you. My point here isn't to attack anyone... it's to get this question answered, if you think that shows and large-scale breeding are humane, can you prove to me that the chinchillas are happy? OK, cool, if your cages are sanitary and the chinchillas won't get sick. But what what else? What else other than pretty colors, and quality breeds, are these animals getting out of being grouped in tiny cages and paraded around? Like I said, it just seems like a sick science expierement. If one really cared about preserving the species, I would think that they would be doing more than caging up hundreds of them and putting them in shows.

 

[Tennyson]

This is the same debate that has raged for years about every animal that is kept in captivity..."is it ok to coop up chickens in tiny little cages and then kill them to eat"..."is it ok to kill cows for meat?"..."is it ok to keep those cows in a tiny stall and milk them with a machine?" and most relevant, "Are chinchillas "ok" in small cages?" To date, however, I have never had or heard of a chinchilla suffering any ailment, mental changes, fur biting, weight loss, or other problems simply from living in a small cage. Heck, when I was in college, I spent my whole life sitting in my dorm room...the relevant equivalent of a breeder cage Didn't hurt me. Animals only know what they are experiencing...in other words-spend your life in a small cage, you don't even know that its small-it is your whole world, and you accept it because you don't know anything "better" is out there.

And as far as being poked and prodded-ever had a prostate exam? Visit the gynecologist? Or get an MRI? Are these things fun? no...do we spend the rest of our lives recovering from them? no...we move on the minute we are done. Chin gets picked up, turned over, prodded, swabbed, etc...then it gets put back down, goes home, and the next day it moves on. Hardly sounds like torture.

 

[Claire D]

OP, you're saying it is coincidence that at almost exactly the same time as you post this tirade of abuse & ignorance on the forum, Tiff gets an abusive email about exactly the same thing? Oh please, do us all a favour & cut the crap.

Your posts are vitriolic in the extreme, ignorant beyond belief, & utterly puerile. I could go through your posts & answer almost every sentence point by point but, do you know what? I don't think anyone should bother - this thread is nothing but an exercise in trolling, designed to get everyone's blood pressure up.

Think what you like about breeders & shows but until you've been to one, seen the way in which the chins are handled & judged you're wasting everyone's time. Anything anyone says is going to be ignored because you've already made your mind up that breeding & showing chins is 'inhumane' & we're all in in for profit & it's got nothing to do with chinchilla welfare etc - you couldn't be more wrong but I'm going to suggest that no-one here feeds the troll.


Guys, don't feed the troll - it's not worth it. :woolie:

 

[Sycamore Chins]

I would love if you could answer me one question Anniemarie89:

Are you vegan?

This is not a stab at vegans, but I'm just wondering if you use any animal products at all? Leather shoes? Eggs? Are you entirely against the use of all animals for products (because that's what chinchillas were domesticated for, just like cows, chickens, everything that's been domesticated - a product)? Are you entirely against how all animals are kept? How show dogs and show cats are kept? Cats are kept in cages at shows. Many show dogs are kept in kennels.
Or is it just chinchillas that you find something wrong with?

And since we're OBVIOUSLY going at this entirely wrong (the nerve of us...showing our animals), how do you suggest we improve the chinchilla breed? or shall we just let them live in big huge happy colonies where they inbreed and produce fuzzy cute crappy quality animals (oh, but they're friendly)?

 

[Tagna]

Guys, don't feed the troll - it's not worth it. :woolie:

:hilarious:

Love that! Had to get that in there before this get shut down.

 

[caiti]

What else other than pretty colors, and quality breeds, are these animals getting out of being grouped in tiny cages and paraded around? Like I said, it just seems like a sick science expierement. If one really cared about preserving the species, I would think that they would be doing more than caging up hundreds of them and putting them in shows.

Every breeding program is essentially a science experiment. Breeding a species isn't about just preserving the species--it's also about preserving aspects humans find pleasing that may serve no purpose to the animal and may even be detrimental to it, like some genetic diseases in purebred dogs. But it also preserves aspects that may be beneficial to it, like overall health. The fact is that breeding for shows does not completely take into account a species best interest at heart. It's a compromise between what traits people like to have animals with and making the animals as healthy as they can be. That's just the way it is.

 

[Silverrose]

This is just silly. If breeders didn't breed animals to improve the species, how in the world would we get the healthy animals we do? Knowledgeable and responsible breeders are pairing up chins, or any animal, in order to strengthen quailities, whether physical or personality-wise, not just put together animals for the heck of it to make cute babies. Otherwise we would be running around with inbred, poor quality, unhealthy, genetically weak animals, that would not look as great or have a great quality and length of life.

 

[ticklechin]

I stay here on the forum to learn, not to read ignorant threads like this. Get lost. Go feed your chin another raisin since you think that was OK, your STELLAR vet told you so.

 

[Anniemarie89]

I've never been to a chinchilla show; but they can't be much different than a county show for like 4-H, not the actual judging part but how they're presented.

Breeders bring their chinchillas to the shows to see if they are qualified for breeding and that they will produce better quality babies, rather than just throwing together two chinchillas that could possibly produce babies with defects which could be physical or phsycological (sp) As far as I have been able to understand the point of chinchilla shows are to make sure that they are good, healthy chinchillas. A judge is not going to be pleased with a half starved, dehydrated chinchilla or any animal for that matter.

Honestly, if you think that putting a q-tip in to the chinchilla's vagina is torture what are you going to do if your chinchilla needs to go to the vet and they need a culture (sp) on some fluid that is seeping from your chinchillas vaginal or anal opening? Are you going to deny it because you think it's torture or are you going to allow it to save it's life? It's not as if they're doing it to torture the animal they're doing to make sure that it's healthy.


I doubt any one on this forum would torture a chinchilla or any animal for that matter or sponser/put a website on this forum that did so.

I appreciate your response, out of everyone else's, you have actually helped me understand a little further. I think it would be a good idea to check and make sure the chinchillas are healthy for breeding, and certainly, keeping their cages clean does make sense. I just wonder if there's not a better way to go about checking to see if they are healthy? I can't imagine there would be too many chinchilla shows around, so driving to a vet who specializes in small animals and chinchillas might just be as easy as going to a competition.

Also, I understand the medical necessity of swabbing -- hey, I'm a girl, I've been through some of the same things myself, sadly. But the thing is, if it's getting swabbed at a show, really, how medically necessary is that? Of course I would never deny my chinnie any special care or medical attention, but I would never unnecessarily dangle him upside down and shove a qtip up there, ya know.

I guess it would be all about your perspective on the shows, and what it's like to actually go to one. But that's why I'm asking on here... is it humane, can you help me to understand if it is? Because when I look at the pictures, all I see is torture, uncomfortable and scared chinchillas. It just makes me sad to think that people would be putting their pride and happiness above a chinchilla's. If this really is "pelt neutral," and I don't care if you're making a profit or not on the show chinchillas, it all just seems like a business to me. And to me, chinchillas and animals are not supposed to be business, they're supposed to be things you love and cherish and respect.

 

[Sandi]

I actually can't believe this is a "pelt neutral" forum. That's insane to me. I won't get into debating that, if it's respectful not to debate that then I won't. I'm just in shock.

Did you read the rules of the forum when you joined? It specifically says "pelt neutral". I pretty much agree with everyone's response. You're looking for happy and healthy chins yet you will "think" about reducing or stopping the amount of raisins you give your chin daily.

 

[Christina Noraas]

Every breeding program is essentially a science experiment. Breeding a species isn't about just preserving the species--it's also about preserving aspects humans find pleasing that may serve no purpose to the animal and may even be detrimental to it, like some genetic diseases in purebred dogs. But it also preserves aspects that may be beneficial to it, like overall health. The fact is that breeding for shows does not completely take into account a species best interest at heart. It's a compromise between what traits people like to have animals with and making the animals as healthy as they can be. That's just the way it is.

Kind of like how if there was a way to breed a chinchilla so that it could never get malo or any other horrible disease or disorder, would it still be such a bad thing to breed for better, healither animals?

Some humans do the same thing too, say you decide to use a sperm donor many, many people map it out exactly to the point where they think that they're going to be getting the cutest, smartest, most perfect child; whether that works out for them I have no idea. Some do it while looking for a partner as well.

 

[Tennyson]

Man-I love it when the OP posts the exact same question that has already been answered as her defense again-You already heard that the swabbing is done when females stop producing-whether it is done at a vet or a show-do you think the chin cares? Do you think it is self-conscious of the people looking at it? If what you are really trying to say is that animal emotions parallel human emotions, that is an entirely different topic. Otherwise, it does not matter whether the chin is examined at a vet or at a show-it is an examination, and the chin will forget that it ever happened minutes afterwards.

And I'm guessing you don't have kids-otherwise you would know that sometimes a child (or chin) has to go through something uncomfortable or scary for his/her own good-in some ways, showing your chin is the same as dropping your kid off for his first day of school-alone, among hundreds of strangers, being stared at, poked and prodded (intellectually and socially) and examined under strange new lights. Difference is-the kid remembers it the next day. The chinchillas don't.