How to introduce male to female? (help?)

[arwagen]

So I got my first chinchilla in May of 09. Her name is Echo and she is about 10 months old. Echo is a bit small for her age, she is a bit larger then a Guinea pig but not the size of a normal female chinchilla. My understand is it was still safe to breed her. So the other day I bought a 3 yr old male. The male is white, Echo is a standard gray. The male is larger then Echo and their first encounter was in an open room. they touched teeth, then chased for a bit. I thought it was playing untill i saw some of Echos hair in the males mouth. The male is use to other chinchillas, but Echo is not. She almost seems scared. So my question is how do i introduce these two chinchillas for that Echo isnt quite as scared and the male isnt too eager?

Also the male at the moment is in a dog carrier (fairly large) with everything needed (bedding, water bottle, hay). The opening to the carrier is facing Echo's cage because i heard it helps them get use to eachother's scents. What else do I need to do? :wacko:

Thankyou in advance for any replies

 

[tunes]

I was just about to answer this on Yahoo. Guess I'll just do it here instead.

1.) First, before anything else gets answered, where are your animals from? Are they both from reputable breeders who could provide pedigrees on them so that you can trace their lineages back several generations? If they are from a pet store or a rescue, please, keep them apart permanently.

2) Has someone experienced evaluated them to A) see if they should be bred, and B) see if they are a good match?

3) Are you prepared for the male to beat up and possibly kill Echo? Are you prepared for Echo to do the same for the male if she gets up the courage? Are you prepared for dead kits if they get stomped or pulled out in pieces parts if they get stuck? Are you prepared to lose Echo if the pregnancy/delivery goes wrong? Do you have $500.00 minimum to take Echo to the vet if she needs an emergency C-section.

4) You mention you have the male in a cat carrier. Why do you not have a second cage? ANY time you have a breeding pair or any other pair of chins, you must have a second cage in case of fights. I am assuming you did no quarantine, due to the fact that you have no second cage as well? Quarantine protects not only Echo, but the new chin coming in. It gives them time to adjust to the new environment and it gives you a chance to observe for any disease before exposing him to Echo, thereby risking her health and safety. Also, unless you plan to have the male keep Echo pregnant all the time, year around, you need a second cage to remove him to once she is close to delivery. Then there are the kits. Where were you going to put them when you wean them at 8 weeks?

Please, read through the breeding and babies FAQ's and read the thread "It isn't always easy" stickied to the top of the breeding and babies forum. Be sure that you are thoroughly educated before you make this decision. This is not to discourage you, but to inform you so you make the right choice for Echo.

As far as introducing them, I always use the cage within a cage method. I use small show cages that are wire and open all around so the chins can see and sniff each other. I put one chin in the smaller cage, then put it in the larger cage for several hours, or overnight. In the morning, I switch, leaving the loose chin in the smaller cage. In your case, I would put the male in to start, since Echo has already been traumatized by him chasing her and ripping out her fur. This can take a while, but I am not in a hurry and I'm not going to shove my chins together without giving them the time to adjust to each other.

Be aware, not all chins are meant to get along with other chins. It may be that Echo is too timid to be able to handle a male (or even a female) cagemate. You have to respect the individual chin and not try and force it, no matter how much you want them to breed. Be alert and vigilant to the clues you are getting from Echo.

Welcome to CnH. Please take some time to do some reading in the breeding and babies section. It is really helpful to go into breeding with your eyes wide open.

 

[arwagen]

thankyou for your response. I did read up on introduction before i bought the male. The male came from an owner who no longer could care for their chinchillas. they only had three. all were in good health. My mother is a vet and she inspected the chinchilla before hand. I havent the money to buy another cage, but i just assumed the carrier was good. its not a small cat carrier. its more of a dog house/carrier so its fairly large, and has room for a wheel. I have a small show carrier, thank you for your help. I am aware of what could happen. We got Echo from one of my mother's coworkers. We do not know Echo's father because when her mother was bought she was already pregnant without the buyer knowing. I am considering neutering the male. Mainly I just wanted Echo to have a cagemate, and if a litter or two came my way before I neutered the male, i could handel it. I have other cages, not for adult chinchilla's, but for the kits (if there ever are any) once they can eat on their own that is. I figured sine a chinchilla pregnancy is usually around 111 days, that would give me time to get a new cage with no shelves and get Echo situated before birth.

Again thank you for warning me of the possible outcomes of chinchilla breeding, and thank you so much for how to get them "situated", if possible, into one cage.

 

[arwagen]

Thank you for replying so soon. I do have other cages, not for adults, but for the possible kits once they are off their mothers milk. Also I did read ahead before i purchased the male. My mother is a vet and she came along and inspected the male, the sellers cage which the male was previously in, and the 2 other chin in the sellers cage. The carrier the male is in is more of a dog house then a carrier. I plan on going out and buying a wheel for the male as the carrier is nice and spacious and give the male more then enough room to jump and run around. I figured if Echo did become pregnant after becoming the males cage mate, that i would have around 111 days (the average chinchilla pregnancy) to buy and set up a new cage with no shelves in it that would be baby kit-friendly. Thank you for sharing how you bond your chinchillas. I will make sure to try that

Thank you for replying P

 

[tunes]

Absolutely no offense to your mother, but she cannot tell you if the chins you bought are breeding quality, nor can she tell you if they are genetically sound to be bred. You cannot tell by visual inspection if a chinchilla carries malocclusion. The only way to know that is with careful health histories being kept. Without a pedigree, you are bleeding blind, much like going to the dog pound and taking two apparently healthy appearing dogs and throwing them together to create offspring.

The most your mom can tell you is if the chins are healthy right at this moment, as far as heartbeat, pulse, general appearance, brightness of eye, health of coat. She cannot tell you anything beyond that. That isn't enough reason to breed two chins. There are loads and loads of healthy appearing chins, but that does not answer the question of whether they "should" be bred or not.

Do you know what a breedback is? It means that your male can breed your female WHILE she is still pregnant. You cannot leave the male in 111 days or your female will be pregnant with her next litter before she delivers the first one. If you are absolutely 100% positive of when the mating took place (and you can't be, because they do not always take on the first or even 10th mating), then you can count the days and pull the male 10-15 days before delivery. Most people cannot guarantee when the pregnancy occurred, so the male comes out well ahead of time.

If your carrier is plastic, be prepared for your male to chew his way out of it. I speak from experience here, and so will others who post after me. One forum member kept a chin she was transporting in a cat carrier overnight, and by morning he was gone. It took her several weeks to find him, when he fell through the drop ceiling and landed in her lap. He was not, obviously, in good shape. A cat or dog carrier is not a safe or practical cage for a chin, other than as a very temporary measure.

 

[RDZCRanch]

Thank you for replying so soon. I do have other cages, not for adults, but for the possible kits once they are off their mothers milk. Also I did read ahead before i purchased the male. My mother is a vet and she came along and inspected the male, the sellers cage which the male was previously in, and the 2 other chin in the sellers cage. The carrier the male is in is more of a dog house then a carrier. I plan on going out and buying a wheel for the male as the carrier is nice and spacious and give the male more then enough room to jump and run around. I figured if Echo did become pregnant after becoming the males cage mate, that i would have around 111 days (the average chinchilla pregnancy) to buy and set up a new cage with no shelves in it that would be baby kit-friendly. Thank you for sharing how you bond your chinchillas. I will make sure to try that

Thank you for replying P

Since you have no kits at the moment...why not keep the male in one of those cages versus a dog crate? That just seems like a simple, obvious solution...

I'm agreeing with Tunes. As long as a chinchilla looks outwardly healthy any vet(no offense to your mother or her knowledge) can say they are breeding quality. Quality in chinchillas is much more than that and like dogs and cats...they have genetic faults associated with them that we have worked very hard to breed away from. By getting animals off craigslist or from a pet store and then breeding them it takes us back so many steps in what we are trying to achieve. We are by no means trying to discourage you from breeding. If you are dedicated it could be a great idea...but I think you have more to learn beforehand and finding a reputable breeder in your area to mentor you is a great idea.

It also concerns me that your female is smaller than your male. Females need to be the larger one. Do you think she is large enough to carry a litter of four or more? Just because she CAN have babies doesn't mean you SHOULD make her have babies. If she is terrified of the male and he's aggressively trying to breed her upon moments of meeting I can't see this girl having much peace or less breedbacks with the male.

 

[arwagen]

basically my mom agreed that the male looked in good health. The cages for the kits would be old hamster cages, peferctly fitting for a kit, but not for a full grown male chinchilla. Echo was the runt of the litter. She had to be force fed because the mother would not feed her. It does concern me too her size, but i was told my not only my mother but her fellow coworkers that there should be no problem with her breeding. I guess i should rely not only on what they say, but what i can find online from experienced owners.

 

[tunes]

I guess i should rely not only on what they say, but what i can find online from experienced owners.

Please remember you said that. It's really important to speak with people who have had experience with breeding. I love my vet (who I wish was my mom!) but she knows very little about chinchillas in general, and nothing about breeding. I greatly appreciate you being open minded.

Again, general health does not give you medical history nor does it give you the quality for breeding. Despite what some people say, size can be important. How did they determine that she was safe for breeding? Even with a pedigree and a clear health history, some chins are just too small to breed. I know weight isn't everything, but I do have a set line in my barn. Nothing under 600 gm (female) goes into breeding. That is not a rule everyone follows, but it's one I adhere to religiously. I prefer my females to be 700 and up, but if there is the perfect female under 700, I will consider it. Males I will go a hare under 600, but he has to be pretty darn good, and I only have one I will make that concession for.

If your female is small, one of the obvious concerns could be whether the kits will fit through the birthing canal or not. My mentor showed me to check this, by placing my thumb between the pelvic bones. A man's (or a good sized) thumb should be able to fit easily between the bones. If it cannot, then she may have serious issues with delivering kits.

In addition to that, unless your female is unbelievably good in quality, clarity, and conformation, there is just no point to breeding a midget chin. There are plenty of them on petfinder.com right now, looking for pet homes.

A hamster cage is not appropriate for kits, at all. Kits are VERY active, jumping, running, climbing. A hamster cage is barely suitable for a hamster, I would never consider using one for a chinchilla of any size.

 

[saphire]

Like the others, being she is small and you want to mate her to a bigger male that would concern me very much including they have no pedigree.

Since they mention there should be no problem with the breeding, I guess they checked to see if her passage is large enough for the kits to pass while birthing.

Again no offence to your mother and coworkers. Not questionning their knowledge, just want to help you have kits that are sound and healthy and at no risk for your animals.

 

[RDZCRanch]

That sounds like a good idea. I'm sure your mother is an excellent vet, but my vet that has over 10 years of experience with chins admitted that besides telling you an animal is healthy...he can't tell you if it's breeding quality. He knows how to treat them and what medicine they need and how they tick so to speak, but he's not a breeder. I'd take a look through the breeding faq's section and really think twice about breeding Echo. If she's small she may not have a safe birth...especially with a male that is larger than she is.

I also wouldn't use hamster cages for kits. While kits seem small they are larger than hamsters when they are weaned and should have a chinchilla sized cage with wire spacing of 1" by 1/2"

 

[VolunteerChin22]

I think the biggest thing I got out of your post is you really just want Echo to have a cagemate, right? And if babies are secondary thats ok...This is definately not the way to think about this housing situation...Why didn't you consider getting Echo a female cagemate? Then you wouldnt have the cost of neutering or risk having pregnancy complications (which sound very likely) to consider...And also do you plan to keep all these kits? Pet market is very saturated with pet quality chinchillas so it may be hard to find them homes, just a thought.

 

[Jazicat]

Is it even recommended to breed a 10 month old chinchilla? Wouldn't it be better to wait another 2-8 months at least since she is small and may still do some growing.

Please don't take it personally but why breed when it's not to better the breed. Yes babies are cute and you may find homes for them but there are always chins that need adopting so why make more. Why not neuter your boy, let your girl grow a little more and attend some chinchilla shows before breeding. If you do it this way you would be doing it with the knowledge needed and the time to really know if it's the right thing to do.

 

[Brea]

Chinchillas dont always need cagemates. More often its just us that wants another chinchilla (not that i blame you, i couldnt stop at one either). If all you want is another cagemate, then why not get your male nuetered first or get a female? There is no guarentee they will ever get along. Are you prepared to get another cage (which you should have now)? I have had chins chew out of carriers before and much more quickly than you would think possible. 10 months of age is the minimum breeding age for a good quality large female. I would wait a couple more months before even thinking of breeding her if you insist on doin so. Let her at least finish grownin.