having trouble with intro

[momenteller]

Starting a new thread here, hoping someone can give me some advice. I've been doing a shared playtime introduction method. The chins have each been aggressive, standing on their hind legs and barking, chasing and fur pulling. I know some of this is normal, but how many times do you let this continue without success? Should I give up to avoid further stressing my girls, or could it help to try another method (cage within a cage)?

Any help you could give me would be much appreciated! I'd really love for my girls to be friends.

 

[tunes]

I personally think playtime introductions are an accident waiting to happen. There's too much room to do too much damage. That's just my personal opinion though. Other people have good luck with it.

I have yet to have the smaller cage within a larger cage fail me. I use it for all my introductions, whether it's same sex, opposite sex, pairs, trios, quads - whatever. It works great for me.

Before you give up, I would at least give it a try.

 

[momenteller]

Thank you, Tunes! I'll start "neutralizing" the FN and try it tomorrow night. I have a small carrying cage I purchased from Bass Equipment. It's small enough to fit in the FN but larger (I imagine) than a show cage. I can fit a hidey house in there. Would it be okay to put that in the carrying cage, or would that defeat the purpose?

 

[tunes]

Don't put the hidey house in it. You want them to be able to see and smell each other easily and if the one in the cage can hide in the house, they'll just think of it as a smaller cage and not as a meet and greet.

 

[Pantouffe]

sorry to hijack here but could you tell me do you use a new cage(neutral) and is the cage within to be left overnight or do you take the chins back to their home cages after a period ? I dont want anyone to get stressed. My pair already drew blood so i need to wait a few weeks I know but in the mean time I thought id research it properly and build something safe. What do you suggest for the perfect intro cage setup?

 

[tunes]

The cage doesn't have to be new, but it needs to be small enough that the caged chin can't constantly run away from the loose chin. I use a show cage, and I'm not sure on the demensions, but it's roughly 6 x 6 x 10 maybe? Then I put hay all over the top so they climb on top to eat it. In your case, since your male was already really aggressive, I would trim his whiskers back really short, maybe leave half an inch or so (have someone help you so you don't poke him), and I would start with him in the intro cage, letting the female run free. I would also put some vanilla on the top of his nose so he can't smell her so much.

Yes, I have left them in overnight. It won't hurt them. I give them a pile of hay to munch on and make sure they have a drink during the day, then let them sleep in the small cage.

 

[Pantouffe]

Thanks Tunes. What exactly do whiskers mean to chinchillas? do they lose face without a fine long pair? Dont they need them to judge spaces etc?

 

[tunes]

It has to do with dominance. A dominant chin will chew the whiskers off a submissive chin. If you cut their whiskers off, it evens the playing field a bit more. It doesn't work every time, but it does help.

 

[momenteller]

So I started the cage within a cage method yesterday evening, putting the smaller cage on the bottom level of a Ferret Nation 142. (We waited a while for various reasons). When they do interact, they seem to be getting along okay, just sniffing each other. But mostly the loose chin seems to be running around, doing her own thing. Should I block off the top level of the FN to force them to interact more? My plan is to continue switching them every 4-6 hours until tomorrow morning and then, if they continue to act okay towards each other, let them both loose tomorrow morning when they're both a little sleepy. Is this too soon?

If this works, I know it will all be worth it in the end, and that the chins are fine to be in that cage for short periods of time. But Chelsea acts so pathetic when she's the one in the little cage. Gnawing at the bars and holding on to them with her paws like she's a little prisoner. Poor little punkin.

 

[Carol~Anne]

With the cage-in-cage method, are you not concerned about them biting/fighting through those big spaces especially if you're leaving them for 4-6 hours? I'm asking b/c I'm doing intros with a pair of boys right now and it is going slower than my other attempts at introductions and am at the point of letting it go and just building yet another cage. It is possible that I could try this method but I just can't see myself being comfortable leaving them unattended when they're able to access each other and possibly do injury.

 

[Hope]

I had the same issue with my chins who were separated after his neuter. They also were aggressive despite living together happily for the previous 3 years. I cut the whiskers back (not enough at first - down to about an inch worked), neutralized the cage, put vanilla on top of their noses and under their tails (a v. small amt and very carefully to avoid any getting near their sensitive noses) and they stopped fighting immediately. I put them in the cage since they were playing nicely in a neutral area and stayed up all night to supervise. By 4:11 - yes I stayed up and it really took that long - they were snuggled up and ready to go to sleep! The only challenge we have had since is him starting to bark for apparently no reason at nighttime. I started using a night light since I don't think they can navigate as well in the dark without whiskers and so far so good - happy bonded chins and no barking. Good luck - it's very stressful when they fight I know...

 

[momenteller]

With the cage-in-cage method, are you not concerned about them biting/fighting through those big spaces especially if you're leaving them for 4-6 hours? I'm asking b/c I'm doing intros with a pair of boys right now and it is going slower than my other attempts at introductions and am at the point of letting it go and just building yet another cage. It is possible that I could try this method but I just can't see myself being comfortable leaving them unattended when they're able to access each other and possibly do injury.

Yes, Carol-Anne, I am a little worried about them fighting through the bars. I haven't seen any problems so far; hopefully my luck continues. I'm not sure but maybe the fighting is less of an issue since dominance/submission is clearly defined by the cage setup? I only know I didn't have any luck with the shared play times, so this is a last resort before keeping them separated permanently. I bought the FN with the intention of splitting it in two if the intro didn't work, but now that my one girl has had the place to herself for awhile, I hate to block her from using half of "her" cage.

Does anyone with experience doing this method have any input as to whether I'm doing this right or not?

 

[momenteller]

So did the cage-within-a-cage thing for 36 hours. The girls seemed amiable when they'd sniff each other, no signs of bickering. This morning I decided to let them both loose in the FN, hopefully they'd be a bit sleepy and just go rest. No such luck. They avoided each other for a few minutes, then turned into a ball of snarling flying chinchilla fur. I'm sooo bummed. I knew when I got another chin that they might not get along. I bought the FN so that I could separate it into two cages if they didn't get along or started to fight down the road. But I didn't expect it to be so hard! Now my first chin has had the run of the FN for a few months and I hate to take that room from her. But its either that or clean two cages forever.

I can't help but feel a little upset towards Luna. In every case, Chelsea was simply sniffing her and Luna went after her. I know its instinct, I know its not her fault, but its so disappointing. I've seen so many warnings on here from experienced members to not expect them to get along, but I guess I just had so much hope.

Anyway, just had to vent a bit.

 

[RDZCRanch]

Kate, since Luna is the aggressor, trim her whiskers down really short and dab some vanilla extract on and around her nose. She'll look a bit funny but it doesn't hurt them. This is what I do when I'm trying to introduce an aggressive chinchilla to one that's more docile and curious. The whiskers will grow back and lack of whiskers does not hurt them.

 

[momenteller]

Kate, since Luna is the aggressor, trim her whiskers down really short and dab some vanilla extract on and around her nose. She'll look a bit funny but it doesn't hurt them. This is what I do when I'm trying to introduce an aggressive chinchilla to one that's more docile and curious. The whiskers will grow back and lack of whiskers does not hurt them.

I've tried that when I did the shared playtime in the past. Should I try again? I'm just wondering how many attempts I should make, since it seems to be stressful for the chins (and myself!) And should I do this right away, or wait a bit so the memory of their last fight fades a bit?

 

[RDZCRanch]

I've tried that when I did the shared playtime in the past. Should I try again? I'm just wondering how many attempts I should make, since it seems to be stressful for the chins (and myself!) And should I do this right away, or wait a bit so the memory of their last fight fades a bit?

I would wait a bit, then try the whisker trim/vanilla combined with the cage inside the cage. I would just put Luna in the cage though, since she is the aggressor and you mentioned that Chelsea is the curious one.

I've found after a fight...if you try an intro again right away, the chin that was picked on gets overly defensive and the fights start even faster. It's best to give them a few days to calm down and forget about the fight.

 

[momenteller]

Thanks Tabitha! I really appreciate all the advice I can get! Just a few more quick questions maybe you can answer for me: do I need to neutralize the FN again if I give them space for a few days and Chelsea has run of the FN by herself during that time? Do I whisker trim and apply vanilla to Luna before I put her in the smaller cage? And if I try the cage-within-a-cage method and they seem to interact fine, how do I know when its time to release Luna into the larger cage? In her sticky, Tunes says:

Do this as many times as you need to until they either get along happily, or they don't.

They seem to get along when separated by the smaller cage. So how will I know to move on to the next phase? Sorry to ask so many questions!

 

[Carol~Anne]

I feel your frustration. I took on two rescue boys a few months back and the dominant one starting picking on the timid one to the point where I noticed bite marks on his ears and he was dropping a bunch of fur. Upon closer inspection I also noticed a red mark on his side where a chunk of fur had been torn out. I immediately separated them but was very disappointed b/c I really didn't want to set up another cage in my chin room b/c all my cages are huge and I knew it would be really crowded if I put yet another large cage in there. I spend a lot of time in my chin room watching TV and tending to the chins so I want it comfortable for me too. As it is when people see my chin room their mouths drop b/c of all the big cages and all seven chins.

So, I've got this single boy Carlos that is fairly young (got him from a shelter and they weren't sure on his age, just listed as 'young') and is in a huge cage all by himself so I've been trying for a while now to get him and this other chin, the timid one to buddy up. Rupert (timid boy) has no problem with Carlos at all but Carlos has a problem with him and does chase him. Some nights are pretty good and other nights not so good and I'm not sure how long I'm going to keep trying this.

I have a bunch of melamine here and I've talked my husband into building me one more cage for Rupert b/c the one he is in at the moment is too small. I know others would think it fine and would probably have two or more chins in there but I just like big cages and all the other boys have big cages and I feel bad for Rupert.

So I've got hubby's go ahead to build (he's such a good guy) b/c I've gotten him to feel sorry for poor Rupy, lol.

It's all set to go, maybe even tomorrow and then the little imps get along great last night so now I don't know if I want to go ahead with the new cage building project. I wish these guys would just make up their minds as to whether they will get along or not. :wacko:

I think I'm going to trim Carlos' whiskers and try a bit of vanilla. Before I separated Buster & Rupert I cut back Buster's whiskers pretty short and it did absolutely nothing at all. If anything it made him madder. It might work for Carlos though and worth a try b/c I'd love to have my space back in the chin room and put that temp cage back in storage.

 

[momenteller]

Thanks, Carol-Anne, for commiserating with me! I knew this could be the outcome. I thought I was prepared. But I didn't expect to be this disappointed! I had it all set in my mind that they'd either share this nice big cage or I would split it... no big deal. But Chelsea has so much fun running all over her FN. She uses almost every part of it (except the fleece tube, I think my chin is the only one that doesn't like those!) so I can't imagine restricting her. Luna is in a cage that would be adequate, but just that. And I can't fit a wheel in there. She doesn't seem to mind because she doesn't know what she's missing; her cage at the breeder's was much smaller. But I know how spoiled she could be. The hubby mentioned getting another FN for Luna at one point, so I could possibly convince him to go that route if my next attempt doesn't work. But oh, I'm not quite sure he realizes the expense of outfitting the entire cage once its all said and done, with shelves, fleece, toys and wheel. And FNs take up a lot of space!

If only they'd be friends it would make life so much easier!

Good luck with your boys. And I have to say your husband sounds like a sweetheart!

 

[Carol~Anne]

If you can't get them to get along there is always the possibility of getting an add-on to your current FN for Luna. It is big enough to fit a proper wheel and it wouldn't take up any more floor space, it would be like a high rise. Just a thought.

If we go ahead and build another cage, I want this one to be tall but narrower than my other ones b/c I want to reclaim some floor space too. It's a tad crowded for my liking.