Has anyone else attended MCBA Nationals this year and now had chin deaths?

[jags]

For those that have had problems could you email me details so I can compare things that may be factors in this? If you want to remain anonymous I can keep it that way, but more info sure would help.

Info such as feed, water, hay, treats, how quick death was once sick animals were noticed, where outside animals came from, anything pertaining to your every day chin care.

 

[AZChins]

Absolutely...the Aflotoxins in feed have caused many chins to die. It happened quite a bit in the 70s, or so the stories I've heard have said.

And, the point about secrecy. That is very true! If you are having a problem, ask around and tell people about it. No one seeks out to hurt their chins (well, the more normal people don't.) When a breeder or owner has chins with fungus or something affecting the chins chances are it had very little to do with something that person did to the chins. Being able to call up ranchers and breeders has helped me over the years tremendously...and every single one of them understands that we all have problems. Chins can be difficult sometimes.

 

[Pookinaround]

And, the point about secrecy. That is very true! If you are having a problem, ask around and tell people about it. No one seeks out to hurt their chins (well, the more normal people don't.) When a breeder or owner has chins with fungus or something affecting the chins chances are it had very little to do with something that person did to the chins. Being able to call up ranchers and breeders has helped me over the years tremendously...and every single one of them understands that we all have problems. Chins can be difficult sometimes.

I agree 110% but good luck with that! Most you'll get from the majority is "I had a feed issue"... I have heard that soooo many times and as I said before I even bought into it myself because another breeder had deaths and fed the same thing as I did. Same batch and everything. Being new I went with it... I would love to know how many actual "feed issues" there have honestly been and also if they were bad enough to cause death...

 

[tunes]

I did have a bad feed issue that resulted in many, many deaths. It was actually from a supplement I purchased. The chins bodies went to Texas A & M for necropsy (they were sent down the same day via refrigerated carrier) as did their supplement. The supplement was tested and they found issues with it. Told me to dump what I had left, take all of the chins off of all feed for two weeks, give nothing but hay, and we had to medicate the entire herd twice a day for 14 days on, then 14 days off, then 14 days on again. I also had to completely sterilize the chin area including using a huge horse water trough to dip all the runs in bleach water and then leave them to dry in the sun for the entire day. It was a freaking nightmare. Some of my most loved chins had their intestines hanging out of their rear ends and there was nothing I could do about it except put them to sleep. I was able to save one chin who had started with symptoms, but the rest that developed symptoms had to be put down.

I've never been secretive about what happened. It cost me thousands of dollars and so many hours of sleep loss I can't even tell you. I ended up sleeping on the chin room floor because I was so afraid someone else would die if I wasn't there. It was a nightmare.

 

[EMSChins]

Peggy do you mind sharing what A&M found in the feed and what you were sterilizing against? I was not around at that time and am just curious as I had an issue early this year where I lost a couple animals. I have no definitive proof as to what caused it but do know that I tried everything. Once I changed feed my issues resolved and I wish I had done it sooner.

 

[Pookinaround]

I just want to clarify my point...while feed issues are definitely possible and I never stated they weren't the point I am trying to make is this... Many people who I have spoken with AND ACTIVELY SHOW have had unexplained deaths at one point or another. What I have heard is that it is usually attributed to a "feed issue"... That being said maybe the better question to have asked would be..."What is the probability of it being an actual feed issue vs. something that just might have been picked up from a show?"....

 

[greychins]

Is food a factor? Do you use the same food?

I use Mazuri for the breeders and a mix of Mazuri/MannaPro Pro for the rescues. The only chins that died were the ones on the mix. None of the chins on straight Mazuri passed. Coincidence? Causation? I don't know. Another small breeder near me uses Mazuri for their chins, likely from the same mill as we're within 30 minutes of each other, but did not experience any problems/deaths. So if I had to point to food, my thoughts would be on the MannaPro. But... I've kept using it since them and no deaths, and the rabbits I have are on straight MannaPro, and no problems with them (I realize it's a different species, but I would still think there would be some effectS).

For those that have had problems could you email me details so I can compare things that may be factors in this? ... Info such as feed, water, hay, treats, how quick death was once sick animals were noticed, where outside animals came from, anything pertaining to your every day chin care.

Sent you an email.

...but I'm fine sharing most of this with everyone, I just don't want to point fingers at any specific people, as just cause I got a chin from someone doesn't mean that's how it came in....

Feed: My herd is fed mazuri, but ones that died were on 50/50 mazuri/MannaPro Pro mix -- another local breeder uses mazuri, no problems with their herd.
Water: We use a pur3 filter to filter our water.
Hay: We use locally grown horse hay, it's a mix of timothy, alfalfa, orchard grass, rye -- another local breeder uses this same farm to get hay from -- no problems with their herd.
Treats: I don't give them very often at all, maybe some cheerios or a shreddie every other week.
Speed of death: We had five animals die. The first three just up and died. I weigh chins twice a month, but there was no weight loss, no nothing to suggest a problem, just went down to the chins and they had passed. Second to last, found him before he died, alive but couldn't get up or move very much, couldn't lift his head. Died within an hour. Last chin, developed some sort of motor control loss. One of his back legs seemed to be paralyzed or something of the sort, he was dragging it. That just randomly started as well, he was fine and then just out of the blue, dragging the leg. At the time, it was the middle of the night, I thought he had broken his leg, contained him to a small cage, and was going to take him to the vet in the morning. I didn't think this had anything to do with the other chins that passed, at the time. But he passed within 2 hours. Oh and for sure, the leg wasn't broken.

Peggy do you mind sharing what A&M found in the feed and what you were sterilizing against?

I'd be interested to know this as well...

 

[tunes]

Yersinia enterocolitis. They developed severe diarrhea and prolapsed because of it. A&M said that the bacteria was in the supplement through either improper heating of the pellets or through the water used in the making and heating of the pellets. It's been a long time (over 10 years) so I hope I remember that correctly.

I also want to say that there were quite a few of us who had chins dying on the same feed, milled in the same plant, with the same symptoms. I believe it was PenPals (Riven can back me up on this if she checks in). As soon as we stopped the feed and put them on a round of antibiotics they were okay. Nicole and I both had necropsies done and all they would come back with was "enlarged livers" or "fatty livers." That was just a few years back.

As a side note, I've long questioned chin shows and the issue of quarantine. I know lots of breeders don't bother with quarantine at any time, and I know many breeders don't quarantine the animals they bring home from a show. After so many years of having quarantine preached on forums and by various breeders I've spoken to (Gary Nebauer was adamant about quarantine) I have always wondered if there have been cases of chins dying after shows but no one talking about it. I know there has long been secrecy around these types of things because people feared it would damage their sales, but that would not have damaged their reputation for me as long as they handled it.

 

[saphire]

Absolutely...the Aflotoxins in feed have caused many chins to die. It happened quite a bit in the 70s, or so the stories I've heard have said.

And, the point about secrecy. That is very true! If you are having a problem, ask around and tell people about it. No one seeks out to hurt their chins (well, the more normal people don't.) When a breeder or owner has chins with fungus or something affecting the chins chances are it had very little to do with something that person did to the chins. Being able to call up ranchers and breeders has helped me over the years tremendously...and every single one of them understands that we all have problems. Chins can be difficult sometimes.

I agree!! I have found that for some time now, we have been sharing more and more about health issues. Especially on FB.

I know of a new comer that did serious hush hush on their herd and even sold some of their animals to another hobby breeder. Which eventually had issues and found out the seller knowingly sold possible sick animals to her. Sad, this only because they chose to hush hush and sell anyway.

So yes, please do not hush hush. Personnally, I would respect you for that and believe many would also.

Ashley, you are awesome!!!

 

[Pookinaround]

I agree!! I have found that for some time now, we have been sharing more and more about health issues. Especially on FB.

I saw that on FB too!!! At least 3 people mentioned having deaths after the NY show as well...

 

[Pookinaround]

Wonder why some people will post in one place but not the other...would be nice to have it all come together at once...

 

[saphire]

Wonder why some people will post in one place but not the other...would be nice to have it all come together at once...

Since I have many other things to tend to during my days, I can only assume that many people don't spend most of their time on FB, Forums and all to read all situations.
Would also be nice for people to be honest at all times. But that won't ever happen now will it.
It would also be great if people didn't change their minds everytime they change underwear, but that is also unrealistic.
So to expect everything to be the way we want it is not realistic, but at least the group is in the right direction which is several steps ahead over what it once was. That is the reality, it is realistic for us to believe it will continue . We will continue to grow as chinchilla breeders. That's what we are moving towards.
We are wanting to improve and understand, not blame and beat.
Hoping more will join in the positive (Open) frame of mind in the chinchilla world to improve and not blame because really... We still all have to learn and can't be 100% sure of anything.

So, remember, feed, shows, virus, bacteria, dishonesty, all are part of the equation in the speculations of health issues.

but HONESTY, and being open minded to it all with is the key to growing.

 

[Pookinaround]

I know of a new comer that did serious hush hush on their herd and even sold some of their animals to another hobby breeder. Which eventually had issues and found out the seller knowingly sold possible sick animals to her. Sad, this only because they chose to hush hush and sell anyway.

This one is a shame too...as soon as I found out I was having issues I canceled a pending sale with a buyer and immediately issued a refund...too bad not everyone believes in issuing refunds when they choose to cancel sales...or have issues arise...

 

[Snickers]

Selling sick animals is just wrong since you're going to pass the sickness to the other persons herd, and so on and so on.

Pookinaround - at least you did the right thing to cancel & refund. I know people thing money is more important then to do the right thing.

 

[Pookinaround]

It was actually the same person twice...once each time I had a round of issues...I felt soooo bad and worried like crazy about what it must have looked like...again sorry...(you know who you are...) I did also sell 2 animals before the second round of problems started...in this case I had no idea...I don't know what impact this may have had if any but I was tore up about even the possibility of something happening....(sorry to this person as well...I did not know what was about to happen...) If I had I would have pulled the brakes on this deal as well...

 

[Pookinaround]

I am being as open and honest as I am because I can't stand hypocrites! I refuse to "hush hush" and delete FB comments just because of being afraid to admit deaths...THAT is what I believe is perpetuating this problem. I know what I saw and you know I saw what I saw so that is all that matters...(you know who you are too...).

 

[Maine Chinchilla Ranch]

Giardia, probably from NY show

I was way stupid and did not even consider quarantine, confident that the chin was from a reputable rancher and there was no reason. 10 days later Giardia had killed my new $250 chin and infected others in the run. 10 chins later (all on that side of the room) the deaths stopped after 3 days on Albon and Panacur. I have been treating the entire herd for three weeks now and have sterilized everything in the barn.

I can't sell any chin in good conscience until I have at least a month without mushy poo or weight loss. I weigh them weekly these days to monitor their recovery.

This has been a nightmare emotionally and financially, and I'm worried about buying at shows in the future.

It would be nice if there was some real chinchilla research into various bacterias that chins can become immune to. A vaccination would be fantastic!

Feed: Blue Seal Hutch 17
Water: City tap water, bottles
hay: local 2nd cut timothy/orchard bales
Supplement: homemade Ritterspach mix

 

[ticklechin]

This is not any different than malo in a herd, there are still breeders out there who have been doing it forever that claim that they have never had one malo chin out of the thousands they bred, its just not true, everyone has it happen, its not a issue as long as its addressed and taken care of, just like this-large groups of animals are going to have issues, the more info out there the better to resolve it and post the results so someone else can be helped.

 

[Pookinaround]

The most frustrating thing I have experienced with this is the lack of avenues for positive identification of what this actually is...just like in Ashley's case she had a necropsy done but still has questions...it seemed very vague and my vet warned me that testing is rarely fruitful which from what I have seen is true. As I said before I had a fecal done...showed nothing... I honestly do not know how some people are positively able to pinpoint exact causes of things unless there is something blatantly obvious. The only options that seem like they would produce results would be involving going vet to vet to vet or university and spending thousands to find an answer along with dead chins that you weren't able to save anyway....I am not trying to be negative about it but seriously it seems like an insurmountable problem... Only solution I see is research but since there isn't money for research like with dogs/cats...since chins are certainly not making big companies the big bucks I just don't see where we are gonna make any headway...trying to be hopeful but at the same time feeling kinda hopeless...

 

[tunes]

SydChilla - a month is nothing. I didn't move anything out of my barn for six months. I know two other breeders who had multiple deaths who didn't move any out for six months either. You aren't always going to see smushy poops. Sometimes they get lost in the shavings. If you want to be SURE you have no more issues, then a longer period than one month is necessary.

ETA: It's my understanding that once a chin has had and been cured of giardia, any type of stress can then set it off again. I have never dealt with this, thank God, but that is what others have said in the past. Might be something to look into.