EXTREME quill loss!!

[lillybug29]

So, I've been posting about this for about a month or so in the facebook group, but I want some more opinions/help if possible. I got Khaki in Sept, and she started quilling a few weeks after I got her. Her quilling was bad, lasted about 3 months and was traumatic for her. I got mace in Feb. Around then, Khaki started to lose quills again, and made her back look thinner. i took them both to the vet, and the vet did ivermectin for mites, even though he didn't find anything on skin scrapings (that was before I knew ivermectin is bad, I've since changed vets). Nothing really changed, but it didn't get too much worse. Mace started to get a tiny little thinning out of his quills on his back, but not to the extent of Khaki, who's was getting really bad at this point. I had someone suggest allergies (I had switched to fleece liners) and so I stopped using detergent in the laundry. I went through a host of things to test for allergies, to no avail. Nothing changed. Two weeks ago, I took both of them to the vet. This vet (great vet) started talking about a fungal infection, and ringworm. Hedgie daddy and I had gone through ringworm during this period, so it made a lot of sense. She gave us antifungals and revolution, just in case. I've been religiously giving my babies their medications, and keeping a super close eye on it. At first it seemed like it was getting better, cuz I could see some white dots under their skin (which I assumed were new quills) and some baby quills poking through. Khaki also got super grumpy again and didn't want to be touched, just like when she was quilling. The past week especially, Mace has DRAMATICALLY gotten worse. What started as a tiny spot of thinning has now progressed into full on baldness on his back. This has been about the past 4 days. I've taken pictures every day so I can show you how it's gone. Does anyone have ANY idea of what I can do, or what it could be? I've got another vet appt. on Saturday for Mace, but I want to go armed with info if possible. Any suggestions? I'm desperate and terrified!

Mace before being sick: http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h162/ ... ceback.jpg
Khaki's thinned back: http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h162/ ... 1583_n.jpg
Mace about a week ago: http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h162/ ... 7604_n.jpg
Mace two nights ago: http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h162/ ... 6430_n.jpg
Mace last night: http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h162/ ... /00214.jpg
Mace last night again: http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h162/ ... /00118.jpg
Amount of quills that fall out just while I'm holding him giving him medicine: http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h162/ ... 2059_n.jpg


Please let me know if you can think of ANYTHING!! :cry3:

 

[Kalandra]

Your photos are reporting forbidden. Instead of fungal, I would investigate the possibility that this is bacterial. I had one once that got mites from a bag of aspen bedding. We treated him for mites and some time after the mites went away he started dropping quills again and getting little pimple looking spots that would pop and the quill would fall out. He had a staph infection on his back.

Ask your vet about doing a culture & sensitivity test. A culture can be done that should be able to determine if there is a fungal or bacterial infection and it will also tell you the best medication to treat it with.

I'd talk to the vet about that being a possibility.

 

[lillybug29]

hm....I really want you to see the pics Kalandra. Let me try and fix it. Hold on a second.

And I will for sure ask them about bacterial infection. I am a staph carrier....when daddy and I had ringworm, his turned into a bad staph infection because of me. Maybe my other boy did the same thing.

 

[lillybug29]

His back healthy.

What it looked like originally (about a week ago)

A bit after the meds, I thought starting to grow back.

 

[lillybug29]

3 days ago now.

Night before last, digging in his dig box.

His bum where it's spreading to.

What Khaki's looked like at the worst.

How many quills fall out during syringing him his meds



Does this help??

 

[Kalandra]

I'm thinking bacterial is still a possibility. From a couple of the images it looks like there is a white ring around the base of the quills. Some of them look a little crusty.

With Turtle that is what we saw. Most of his were pus like zits, but we saw dried crusty spots too. I don't know if I have any images of it or not, I'll have to look later tonight. We treated him with antibiotics and it didn't get better. I then learned about cultures & asked the vet to get a sample. That is when we discovered it was a staph, and the antibiotic we originally used wouldn't work. Sadly the damage done to the quill follicles was so bad that the quills never returned, but the loss stopped and his skin looked normal.

It could still be fungal, I've never experienced fungal infections yet. But even if it is, the meds don't seem to be fixing the problem. I'd still talk to doc about doing a culture just to rule out bacterial or fungal infections.

 

[mercynursie]

Make sure your vet knows of your history with staph too! There is a nasty form of staph that most people have heard of MRSA.It's really hard to treat/cure and if anyone in the house has it,critters or humans everyone needs to be treated.My hubby had MRSA infection of finger and it required surgical debridement,weeks of wound care and strong antibiotics.While we were treating him,everyone in the house(except chins,thank God he doesn't touch them) had to use a certain antibacterial ointment smeared into our nasal passages twice a day and the cats/dogs were treated with oral antibiotics as a "just in case" recommendation from the vet.Just imagine two months of vaseline stuffed up your nose with chinchilla/cat/dog/donkey/guinea pig hair in the air.My daughter was sooo happy she was away at college and didn't have the fun along with us.

 

[lillybug29]

Thanks for the suggestion guys. I told the vet, and she took some of Mace's quills from his back to culture them. I should get the results within the week. He's on antibiotics now in the meantime, and he's not happy with it. I'm struggling to syringe them to him. He rolls in the tightest ball I've ever seen, and he's so laid back normally. I'm trying to mix it in a small amount of wet cat food, since it's all he will eat since he got on the antibiotics. Thank you both so much for the advice! Keep your quills crossed he'll get better!

 

[Kalandra]

Hopefully you will finally get some answers and can find the right treatment path.

What did the vet give you? Some antibiotics are just plain nasty. Baytril tends to be very bitter. If the vet didn't sweeten/flavor it you may need to find a flavor your little one likes to add to it.

For those, I have used baby food, Boost/Ensure supplements, watermelon juice, Hills a/d, etc.

Are you giving any probiotics too?

Good luck.

 

[InkedupTara]

I dont have any answers, I dont own HHs. I just wanted to say I was thinking about ya, and hope this is resolved soon for you 2

 

[Kalandra]

Any word yet?

 

[lillybug29]

HEY! Sorry, it's been crazy. This will probably be a long and boring post to everyone but Kalandra. OKAY, so he was put on enrofloxacin, and hated it. It smelled really alcoholy, so I'm sure it was nasty. I had Laura Dunklee (she's an angel and let me call her and walked me through it) help me syringe feed Mace. I got him the A/D and the ensure and fed him. Yes, he was on benebac as well. So....after he stopped eating all week, he started to get more quills in slowly. I was only supposed to give him the antibiotics for a week. Khaki then started to lose quills the same rate as Mace, so I started to give her the left over antibiotics. She then stopped eating. UGH!!


So my vet called me yesterday with the results from the culture. Apparently it isn't ringworm, and so not staph. So now we are back to square one. She started to talk about mites and medicine resistant mites. They have been on revolution for the past 2 months.

I'm torn about the "not staph/ringworm" thing. On one hand, I'm not the one killing my babies, but then on the other, what the heck is wrong with them?? Do you have any other ideas? I have pictures almost every day of Mace's quill loss progression if you want them.

 

[Kalandra]

That kinda sucks. At least you know its not staph or ringworm and won't be chasing that anymore.

If this was just one hedgehog, I'd have some ideas... hormonal, nutritional, etc., but considering this is happening to two, it seems more to reason that its disease, parasite, or environmental. I suppose the other is still possible, but it seems a huge coincidence that both would have the same problem.

I seem to doubt its environmental, as I highly doubt you are using cedar or cleaners that would be harming them.

Are the quills that fall out brittle?

 

[lillybug29]

They are both on fleece and have been for months. Khaki has a small litter box that has exquisicat cat litter in it. I didnt use any detergent when washing the liners until last week when I got the tide free and clear. When I washed their old cages, I would use apple cider vinegar, until we thought it was staph, the I bleached everything and rinsed it off really really well.

No, the quills aren't brittle at all. I haven't seen pustules on the bases of the quills or anything. They are losing a few hairs as well, but the ears aren't tattered at all. They both have dandruff unless I spray the palmers olive oil spray (started that after the quill loss started because I though the loss may be from dry skin. I rarely give full baths, Mace has only had 2 since I've gotten him. My water in my house is super dry). I suggested hormonal to the vet since they are opposite sex, an Mace's cage is on top of Khaki's. She said its a possibility, but not likely. If that was it, do I need to get them fixed to help with the symptoms? Is there such thing as a resistant mite? Something that MULTIPLE treatments of revolution and one of oral ivermectin wouldn't fix? There is no way in **** an injection of ivermectin is coming near my babies.

 

[shetland]

Is there any possibility of a food allergy? Perhaps you could try Dreft detergent for washing liners and sacks, etc. as with newborn baby blankets and clothes.

 

[smhufflepuff]

Complicating this whole situation is that you can't use quill loss as a reliable indicator of health in real time. Let me tell you a bit about Satin - the short version:

Satin lost a lot of quills over the course of several months. I have an entire bowl full of them. Seriously, it's like a bowl of cereal, but they're quills. Ultimately, we were able to back-track and determine that it was probably a UTI that set it off, then a fungal infection. Once treated and "healthy" (ie, no more infections), she kept losing quills for some time to come... making it appear that something bad was still going on and that she required continued vet visits, meds, etc... We figure that the quills she kept losing were ones that were damaged in some way when she was sick... so these damaged quills kept coming out...

It's possible that your quill kids are healthy now, but are continuing to lose quills from the time when the badstuff (infection, mites??) was going on.

That does not mean that you should just ignore the issue... but it does mean you can take a breath. What I did was count the number of quills lost every morning and night. I was writing in 20's and 30's in each entry for quite awhile... but felt some reassurance when it topped out and started coming back down into the teens and 20's over the weeks and weeks.

Some thoughts for a to-do list based on what I did with Satin:
The free & clear detergent is an excellent way to go. Wash in hot water. Dry on high without any fabric softeners/dryer sheets. You can use vinegar in the wash instead of fabric softener or dryer sheets - it helps disinfect and softens fabric without adding an extra scent or messing up the ability of the liners to absorb moisture.
Make sure they're doing well nutritionally. You might want to add a supplement like Sunshine Factor.
Make sure their water is clean. Use something like a Pur water pitcher with antimicrobial filter.
When you give them a footbath/regular bath, do it in a dedicated dishpan or similar container; not the bathroom sink where you and your family are spitting toothpaste and mouth yuckies, nor the kitchen sink where uncooked foodstuffs and such have been.
Keep track of weight and number of quills lost for each hedgie.
Take out all the non-essentials (eg, get rid of the kitty litter).
Run plastic & fabric toys through the washer along with the dishes or liners (I wouldn't suggest using the dry cycle/dryer on them though).
Take a look at your other supplies - like nail clippers, oral syringes, etc... disinfect or toss and buy new.

 

[lillybug29]

Smhufflepuff (I wish I knew your real name!) I have done almost everything that you suggested. Today, Mace has lost 49 quills and Khaki (I haven't taken her out as long) has lost 36. I have washed EVERY single cloth thing they have, disinfected EVERY plastic surface, bought a Brita filter for their water, etc. I'm going to look into getting sunshine factor for them. I don't use any dryer sheets or anything other than super high heat and the tide free and clear. I will get a tub for their baths, but I try and not give them many at all.

Their weights have varied a lot since they are going back and forth with not eating and me feeding them a/d with ensure. Khaki has lost 60g and Mace has gained it. (as of last week before my vacation). What fungal infections should I have my vet test for? What do I look to next?

 

[DoGooder]

lillybug29, this is very sad. I don't know anything about hedgehogs other than they're cute. Your Khaki and Mace are in my prayers.

As for the antibiotics, among humans studies have shown wild oregano oil works better than anti-biotics to cleanse the system of bacteria, fungus, etc. It has to be the medicinal wild oregano rather than the processed oregano sold in supermarkets. I've had chronic eczema since childhood (controlled now), and a few years ago when I was suffering a severe attack I started taking wild oregano tablets and about 90% of my eczema was gone in one day. Nowadays I use mostly oregano oil.

So sometimes herbal remedies work better than artificial medicines. Maybe you can find a naturopathic veterinarian. Since I've suffered skin problems almost my entire life I feel a lot of sympathy for people and animals that endure those kinds of diseases. I'm glad you are doing all you can to help the little critters.

DoGooder

 

[charlie]

We have two doing the same thing. The only thing I've been able to attribute it to was food. I've since switched Ella to a grain free, gluten free diet. Quill loss has slowed. Quilton has just today gone to stay in his forever home with another rescue who has more room than I do. I will be interested to see what Nikki does with him. If they are eating well again, try switching one slowly to a grain free diet. We too were at wits end about what what causing the loss and this is the best we've been able to do. I refuse to put any more revolution on them, it didn't seem to be working anyway. And I fully support the invermectin abstenence.

 

[lillybug29]

Well, my vet just called me and I'm beyond furious. I'm now going to have to find a different vet. She is insisting it is mites, even though we have had multiple scrapings and have found nothing. Their ears aren't tattered and they show no other signs of mites other than quill loss. She started to talk about doing a revolution treatment (they've been on revolution since june) as well as INJECTING IVERMECTIN!!! Absolutely not. I told her I'm not comfortable with it because of two negative scrapings. We also haven't checked for anything other than ringworm. I said I wanted to check for other bacterias, fugal infections and the like and she sort of ho-hummed around it. I'm not giving my babies who've already gone through so much freaking ivermectin. It's not happening. Looks like it's back to square one. I'm so upset. I've been weighing them daily and monitoring food and running. They aren't eating much this week and neither of them are running. Looks like it is back to hand feeding now as well. Khaki has lost 100g and Mace has lost his 60g that he gained on the hand feeding.

does anyone know what I should do next??