Clarification Please

[jmdebb]

Hi.

First of all this thread is not to start an argument between anyone or a debate. It is only asking for feedback for my knowledge--I am someone that always needs to know why and not just "that's not good". I am starting this thread because of what was said on the thread about "organic cranberries". And because there is much controversy if it's just your opinion than that doesn't help. I want real answers that are facts if they can be provided, but don't think they can be from what I read on the other thread. Now I will be copying some of what other people said, not to go behind their backs, but just to make some points. Also as most of you know, i'm not a newbie to chins ....I've owned them for i think close to five years now.

Okay I do know chins have sensitive digestive tracts and no gall {sp} bladder and have to be careful with what they eat..

Now as Abby said "Dried fruits can be given to chinchillas in moderation without causing problems. " and "Many reputable breeders sell dried fruits in their website stores as treats for chins. They wouldn't do that if there was any definitive proof that it was so dangerous, right? I think the dried fruit debate is a matter of opinion, and personal experience, rather than scientific fact."

AZ said although she doesn't usually treat, on occasion she will give a piece of papaya. The only problem with saying that dried fruit is okay even in moderation is the fact that people do not understand moderation at all. They hear a raisin is okay every now and then, but they perceive that to mean that it's okay to give it every day or even several times a day.

Allie: Someone says it's okay to give raisins, in moderation. But a newbie may take the first part and not the second and start giving plentiful raisins to their chins. And I wish I had the post from CnQ, but at one point in time a member's chin did get very very sick from a treat with sugar in it. The member didn't know that the treat had been made with an ingredient containing sugar, and then chin almost died.

Okay enough with quoting.

I'm still always looking at breeders sites and reading what they say and there is so much controversy over certain things. For treats it's not just raisins, last night I read that lettuce was safe, it wasn't safe, grapes were safe, they weren't safe..etc...Now, I'm not talking all the time here, talking in moderation. What is the truth to this matter? Like Abby said, many breeders sell these items that are said to be harmful, now I know you guys can't guess why they do it if these items truely are harmful, but is it because it really is okay in moderation and do they just not give a hoot. Like AZ said, if it's just literally here and there are raisins or dried fruits really bad. And Allie this person that said their chin got really sick and almost died from eating something with sugar, was it a fact that was the reason the chin got sick, from one sugar treat? And you also said that with new chin owners if you say in moderation they will give too many, is this why you say never use those treats? Can giving just one raisin really cause bloat? If any of you are breeders [if you would step up to the plate for your advise it would be great] and you sell on your website something that other people say don't use, why do you sell it? Are you saying it really is safe in moderation?

Okay long enough, I'm sure my point is made. Again please no debating back and fourth, I would really rather read answers and facts on this one.

Thanks to all who answer.

 

[starleomach]

I use some dried fruit such as papaya, raisin and craisins. In moderation. More as if they won't take one something is super wrong. Maybe once a week at most unless I am watching them for a reason and want to be sure they are still taking treats. I also give raisins to new animals here to encourage eating. Per ranchers orders LOL

Ralph Shoots says
3 raisins a day the first week, 2 the second, 1 the third, then what ever your practice is after that. His animals in My experiance adjust well coming here...

I would say moderation is ok. but it really has got to be moderation not several a day

 

[Bethany]

My dog ate grapes all his life and a lab died from it. I do know that there are certain breeds that can not tolerate them and ferrets can not either. I think it is possible that it may be toxic to some chins.

Iceberg lettuce isn't good for any animal I think romaine could be given in moderation without causing loose stools. I'm not advising anyone to go out and feed it as a treat.

When I say in moderation I do not mean once a week or once a month. I mean do not over do it when you give it, just a little bit once a day.

Honestly, my feelings are that if it is something the chinchilla is used to having then it will not upset them. I think it is more the ones that have never or rarely get things that have the problem. So in that sense yes, one raisin can and has caused bloat.

I do not give fruit or raisins. I didn't give raisins back when people said it was okay. The only time I have ever given a raisin was to follow up oral baytril.

I do give homemade treats, supplements, and an occasional cheerio. I see no reason to give fruit when there are healthier treats out there that have not caused bloat. Such as giving supplement or oats and rosehips or hibiscus petals. I'm not saying cheerios are good for them, but just because my dog wants a bite of my cheeseburger doesn't mean he is getting one not even in moderation.

I did used to give the oxbow papaya and cranberry tablets. I think those are okay, but they are just too expensive now. So instead of cranberry they get rosehips.

 

[jmdebb]

Yah i think grapes are toxic to dogs [oh i can go for some now..lol], and personally i didn't write that thread because i want to start using raisins, grapes, lettuce...etc... i just need to know the truth of the matter....thanks for your input.

sorry your lab died from the grapes...

 

[tunes]

"Many reputable breeders sell dried fruits in their website stores as treats for chins. They wouldn't do that if there was any definitive proof that it was so dangerous, right? I think the dried fruit debate is a matter of opinion, and personal experience, rather than scientific fact."

I would be careful using that as a basis for giving anything to any animal. "Well, Petco says it's okay to put chins in runabout balls and feed them peach wood. They wouldn't do that if it wasn't okay, would they?" How many pet owners do you think buy into that? The same could be said here. Just because a breeder says it's okay, doesn't mean it is. That goes back to the thread of what defines "reputable." I know of a breeder who uses runabout balls and says they are fine and dandy. Would you use one?

In the end, what you feed your chin is your choice. If you want to fill them up with chocolate and grapes - by all means - go for it. No one can stop you. I personally prefer to feed things that I absolutely know will not harm my chins. Good quality feed, good quality hay, and the very occasional, if any, treat. I give safe wood chews as a treat or hay cubes, and the chins love it. They don't miss what they don't have and they don't crave what I feel is treat given because the owner wants them to have it, not because they should. Then again, my dogs eat dog food. They don't get table scraps at all. I'm not big on treats for any animal.

I don't think it's going to kill a chin to give it raisins now and again, but there are better options and I would choose to use those. Asking for scientific anything when it comes to chins is a waste of breath and page space. There isn't any truly good research that has been done with chins. There's one guy who fed his chins fruit and they didn't die right away, therefore, fruit is okay. There's another guy who never fed his chins fruit and they lived a really long time, so that's okay too. Then again, there's the one who fed his chins cornflakes, Doritos, french fries, and rootbeer (yes, on CnQ there was one), and his did fine too. Would you feed that to a chin? I'm sure he extolled the virtues of feeding everything plus the kitchen sink to his chins, but shouldn't you use just a tad of common sense there?

 

[Riven]

Renal failure is the reason against grapes.

I think that with anything moderation and CONSISTENCY is key. If you don't give treats often when you do give one, it is a bigger disruption to the GIT. If everyday you give a small treat in moderation then the body is use to getting that and it prepares for having that as part of it's diet.

What I've been told is that chins are basically diabetic, in nature they never had to develop the need to process sugars because they came into contact with almost no sugars in their diets.

Any "whole fruits" can add excess water which could cause diarrhea. I personally don't think there would be anything wrong with feeding say... dried lettuce or other plant matter ( not fruits, the actual leaf parts ) it would be basically like hay.

Fruits and sugars is one of those things, there is not enough concrete evidence on it either way, that people can only learn from compiling experiences and figuring out the best they can what caused what to happen. I go by the keep it simple. I don't spend extra money on lots of treats, and I feed what I know is safe for my chins... pellets, hay, and alfalfa blocks. They get wood sticks as treats, and very rarely a plain shreddie.

 

[jmdebb]

OMG I have to ask, why did that guy feed his chins root beer, chips,etc..Did he just not know, or did he not care. Wow for me that takes the cake on all the things i have heard people doing.

yah, i like using different flavors [or whatever..lol] wood sticks and different chew toys as treats.... [hehehe when Noel was out for playtime yesterday, Bo was chewing on a wood stick [don't know what type of flavor] and it was partly hanging out the bars of the cage, and NOel stole it from him, i felt soo bad...

 

[Becky]

Basically, you can justify anything you want to.

We know that sugar is not good for chins. We know that fruit has natural sugar. Why take the risk of feeding your chin something that might hurt it??

Arguing that "reputable" breeders sell it, so it must be OK, is just silly. There are many things sold out there that are either potentially harmful, or at the least, a waste of money.

Everyone has to decide for themselves what they want to feed.

 

[Bethany]

It wasn't my lab, I think a lab was the first breed to have problems with grapes.

Variety is the spice of life, it doesn't have to be a real treat to be a treat. I have been mixing in some of that marigold, mint, orchard grass, brome, and botanical hay in with timmothy hay. They do have a carrot, but I'm not going to start that.

 

[RDZCRanch]

I just don't understand the need for giving chins treats regularly. Like Kristy said...it's good for new chins to keep them from stressing themselves into shock while they adjust. In general they don't NEED them unless you worry they might be headed towards shocky chinchilla land.

None of my chins have had a treat since they first got here. None of them are more depressed or worse off for it. Spoil them with toys instead. Not every animal needs to eat things that we think would taste good.

ETA: and not every animal needs variety in their diet. That's projecting human taste buds onto animals when they don't have them. Their digestive tracts are not made for a variety of different things. They're made to take in grasses and things like that. Why add fruits unless they need it for keeping them from going shocky?

 

[chinsNdobermans]

I don't treat much at all. My chins have not been deprived, IMHO, since I stopped giving regular treats.

 

[Linda]

When I took on a pair of rescue chins a number of months ago, they were on a diet of nuts, seeds, dried fruits, and just a minority of pellets mixed in which they didn't appear to touch. They were surviving on that and had been producing kits. Those folks weren't the first owners, and I don't know what the original owners fed and did, but the people I got them from were not doing anything I would do or have been doing since (including letting them run in their balls).

So chins can survive on that kind of food. I can't tell you that I've seen a marked improvment in their health since they arrived here and were put on a diet of Mazuri and PANR as well as hay, but I'm also not taking them back to the diet they were on.
Linda

 

[eroomlorac]

My chins have never had any fruit for treats, ever, not even one raisin. I occasionally give a Cheerio or a piece of shredded wheat but I mostly just give chew sticks and other wood chews as treats. I also make my own chinnie cookies with canned pumpkin and either whole wheat flour or oat flour as the base and oats, barley and flax added in. I don't think an occasional raisin will hurt a chinchilla just as an occasional candy bar won't hurt a human but I just have never given my chins a raisin.

Humans can live a very long time on fast food and candy and appear quite healthy but eating like that will catch up to them, eventually.

 

[Claire D]

It is a myth that chinchillas do not have a gall bladder - they have been found on necropsy.
There was a brilliant thread on one of the UK forums which had photos from a necropsy & the gall bladder was visible. Sadly now though, it is not longer there - which is a real shame as it was an excellent teaching aid.

 

[Stackie]

I don't understand why people have this dire need to want to give their chins raisins, vegetables, fruits, and candy. They don't need them, and they are perfectly happy with no treats. You're not going to get much "scientific data" on how it effects the chins because there aren't that many chins in labs being studied by researchers. Chins have lived their whole lifespans happy and healthy on pellets, hay, and water.

There may be some people that feed their chins those things, and they may be okay...but I'd like to know how long the average lifespan of their chins are and what the common cause of death is. I could eat McDonalds every day and be just fine..but I guarantee when I get older, I'm going to have some problems. However, there have also been people to feed their chins these things and the chins were NOT okay. I specifically reading stories about someones chins getting bloat from eating a sugary treat.

Chins do not NEED fruits or vegetables. They live perfect, fine, happy and long lives on pellets, hay, and water. I don't need scientific proof when I have read stories of chins getting bloat after getting a sugary treat. My chins are happier to get chew sticks than treats anyway.

As for the reputable breeders that sell fruits...just because they're reputable doesn't make it ok like many have said. If they sold the plastic death balls, or anything else deemed unsafe for chins, would that make it okay too...just because they're a "reputable breeder"? I don't think so.

 

[nicky]

I give my chins dried fruits on occassion. Maybe once a week I'll give them all one little piece of raisin or papaya. They love it. Is it good for them? Well, it doesn't seem to hurt them any. But it is really only a small piece once a week. They seem to like chew sticks and twigs just as much as the raisins. As to why they are not good for them, I'm not really too sure. I know that they can't properly break down the sugar and it causes soft poop, but I don't know the scientific reason to why. There was a women who recently called me wanting to adopt a chin and I asked her what her current chin eats and how often she gives treats. She told me that he eats apples, raisins, different kinds of nuts and hay. She said she doesn't give him pellets because he just doesn't like them and she said she refuses to make him eat something that he doesn't like! I tried to explain to her that pellets are an important part of their diet .... and she said that he had lived like that the last 5 years and she was going to continue to give him what he likes.

 

[Riven]

See, I'm going to have to say that Nicky's post has no basis ( not picking you, this is a common post). It doesn't "seem" to hurt them.

On average pet chins live much shorter lives than ranch chins who get pellets, hay, and alfalfa cubes only. Scientific or not, I'm going to have to say that seems to be a fact to me. If anyone has a pet chin that is 12 yrs or older who has always been a pet chin, I'd love to know. More often than not most pet chins that old are retired breeders.

 

[Godins Chinchillas]

I'd have to agree with Riven. I've seen ALOT of oldies at the ranchers. Hubby's office saw a chin the other day that was given lots of treats and hay. Nothing else. The chin ended up dying at the office. Temp was not even registering and he was severally malnourished. The doc looked at me and said have you seen anything like this. Yup-poor nutrition! Hay, pellets, and water. You aren't doing them any favors by giving themselves junk. Just like you are not doing yourself any favors by eating doritos and 3 muskateers. It will catch up to you. Our dogs and cats get no treats. Kibble and water. I would have to say they are much healthier looking than we are.

There is no data out there. It's just common sense. Feed junk-you will eventually see a ill chin maybe with diabetes, liver issues, gut issues, hunchback, teeth issues, etc. Feed junk to yourself-diabetes, heart disease, etc. Ask hubby. 2 liters of Mountain dew a day will catch up to him. He already put on 50# and is on the verge of diabetes. He feeds his dog better than himself.

If you want data-then test your own animals. Have a control group and a test group. Control group feed hay, water, and high quality pellet. Test group feed junk. Have labwork done in 1 year, compare their hair coats, weights, etc and then come back to us. I'm not trying to put anyone off-it's just common sense.

 

[nicky]

Stop picking on me Riven- just joking!:neener: I am not saying that it's good for them, but that yes I do occassionally treat them. I'm sure that they probably do live much longer and healthy lives than those that get too many treats too often. If a person lives off chips, soda and candy- well yeah they'll live. But, probabaly wouldn't be too healthy.

 

[Godins Chinchillas]

They will end up with Corn Chip toenails-LOL. It's soo gross to see an old person with corn chip toenails. Does anyone need a photo to get a clear picture. I am sure I could get a good one for ya all!