Bumblefoot dilemmas

[BoundNoFtWaL]

I wasn’t sure what topic to put this under since it covers quite a few. Maybe I should have broken this down into separate smaller questions? Please forgive me if I’m doing this wrong. I haven’t posted much on forums. Let me know if I’m messing this up and how to fix it and I’ll make sure to be better next time.

Stitch my first chin is currently being treated for bumblefoot AKA ulcerative pododermitius. That's actually how I found you guys, looking for information to help him. I took him to the vet after I noticed there were puddles of blood on the ledges one night. I inspected him and found his right rear foot had a crack that was bleeding, mostly clotted like it was trying to heal. The vet said that his bumblefoot was caused by sitting on flat surfaces for long periods of time. Dogs also get it on their elbows from sleeping on hard ground. I read somewhere on the net that chins developed calluses on their feet in the wild from running around so much, much like our feet would be tough if we didn't wear shoes. Well in captivity they don't run around as much, so their feet are more tender, and if they stand on hard surfaces for long periods of time their weight (although it may not seem like much) can cause the calluses to form on the edge of their feet, and if dry their feet can crack. They walk in their own poo, no matter how clean you try to keep the cage, and bacteria can get into the cut to cause infection. I'm sorry I don't remember where I read that or I would site it.
He's now on antibiotics (Baytril), today is day 13. Tomorrow is supposed to be his last day. How long can he stay on it without doing damage to his system? At night I carry him around letting him stand in Epsom salt water (by advice of the vet) with cotton balls in the bottom of the bowl. I figured out 1 1/2 teaspoons Epsom salts to 1/8 cup water by the directions on the container. Maybe it's too strong? Should I use something else? Is bluecoat the same thing as Epsom salts, just for animals? While his feet are soaking he gets his Baytril. Then dry his feet off. Then he gets a foot rub with Protecta Pad cream. We have a follow up visit with a different vet this coming Tuesday with the same vet I took Sigmund to (my other chin that just passed). I'm a little bit more confident in her than the first one.

When I first got him the previous owners used Carfresh for his bed. I continued, but I caught him eating it. So, I switched to kiln dried pine shavings. When he had a wooden sleeping house on the ground he would push the bedding out of the house to lay on the flat ground to sleep. He did this even without the house. The pan of the cage is plastic, not textured.

We removed the plastic levels in his cage when we first got him, he was chewing them. They were replaced with pine planks. Went to Lowe's and bought 2 pieces of pine, and made our own shelves. I read somewhere that pressure treated wood usually has little slits in it. If you go to the lumber yard and look there boards that are sort of a funky green color that have the slits all up and down them, I know those one's are pressure treated with chemicals. The wood we bought was the nicer looking smooth pine 6” x 5' boards near their decorative molding. Side note: I went in search of more wood yesterday and flagged down a couple of guys who work in the wood section at Lowe's and asked if their wood was unfinished, untreated, and kiln dried. They said that the stuff I was looking at was unfinished, but they didn't know if it had been treated. They did say most all of their wood comes in wet and ends up bowing as it dries in the desert air here, and usually has sap on it. So, I'm still looking for good wood.

At night time, when he's most active, he would run around on the planks to sit and check out what's going on. I would sweep the poos daily, and wipe down the planks with alcohol every now and then to sanitize them. He never peed on them. I’m now cleaning and sanitizing his cage daily. We took out the wooden planks and threw them away (advised by the vet) in case there was bacteria on them that might make his situation worse. I know I've read about a lot of other chin owners using planks, and the plastic platforms, but had never heard of this causing bumblefoot until he developed it. If you have a chin please keep an eye on their feet.

I know when I got him he had calluses on his feet and they were dry, but I had never really seen chinny feet before; I thought maybe they were supposed to look like that. I ordered the cream to try on him because I noticed his ears were a little dry, but hadn't used it on his feet until I took him to the vet. Before the vet visit he would dust 3 or 4 times a week. At that time I was also sweeping poops every other day if not daily and doing a thorough cage cleaning once a week.

I'm now using fleece blankets to line the bottom of his cage. I was putting pine shavings on top of it in his pee corner. But, he would just nibble the shavings and pee on the blanket, so I'm forgoing the shavings and just letting him pee the blanket. He only goes in one corner any way. Now I'm searching for a way for him to be able to still have his planks to run about on in his cage, but need them to be soft. My only thought on this was to make new planks. Then get some fleece material to wrap them in, which I'd replace daily for washing to prevent infection.

Anyone have advice on how to house a chin with bumblefoot? Any other ideas?

Since the vet bill for Sigmund was so high, and we still have to go in for the follow up for Stitch I'm looking for a inexpensive alternative to buying from the pet store. I know I saw one person with a chinny on here where they put branches in the cage to climb on. Shifting foot weight to the fronts of their feet is good for climbing, but do they perch like this also? I know some of you say Manzanita and dried cactus are safe for them. We do live in the desert here. I was thinking about going to try to find some. Maybe I'll go check with the BLM for info on gathering and where to go. Does anyone gather their own wild harvest branches and chews?

My other dilemma is a hidey house. I took out the wood house we made him because its top was hard, and again with bacteria. Maybe I'm being over protective? I have a length of fleece tied to the cage walls as a make shift hammock that he sleeps under, in the corner of his cage. It's either there or, most of the time, under his flying saucer. I'd like to give him a hidey house, and have seen the cute fleece ones I might try to make. I'm not sure if he'll use it though. I've had the make-shift fleece hammock in his cage before and I've never seen him use it. I've had him for almost a year now. Do any of your chins with the fleece hidey houses use them? I did just buy some 6" PVC to make a couple tubes for him. I'm going to have to dig out my sewing machine to sew some liners for it. Should I make them double layer (for more cushion) or do you think a single layer of fleece would be enough? Should I make the tubes 8" or longer? How long are the ones you guys use? I feel bad I took away all his perches. Now he just sits in front of his door, or under his saucer and stairs at me.

He’s had the saucer since November, and I have yet to see him even put a paw on it to use it. I’ve set him on it a couple times when I put him back in his cage and he freaks out, jumps off and goes to hide under it. I think maybe it scares him. I’ve spun it and with my hand and used his cuddle buddy bunny to try to show him it’s safe, but still nothing. I’m not sure if he’s afraid of it, he just doesn’t get it, or maybe his feet hurt too much to use it. If he has used it it’s when no one is around.

I have been letting him out for play time. I'll lay an extra fleece blanket on the ground and corral a small play area off while I'm cleaning his cage. I didn’t want him running around too much while he has this foot problem. I've only given him 2 dust baths in the last 2 weeks. The first one he only jumped in and rolled once. That was early last week when he was still scabbing over. Yesterday he rolled and rolled and rolled. Did a few laps around me and peed on my leg. Guess he’s feeling better. Lol

No cracks or scabs on his feet now. The calluses are still there, but appear to be shedding on the edges. Maybe the cream is working, breaking them down? I've seen him kind of nibble the corners of the callous once or twice in the last couple days. I'm hoping that it's healing and he's feeling just itchy, like when you have a scab that's ready to come off. His left rear heel has a small spot in the center that looks kind of white. I'm wondering if that's puss or bone or what. I told the vet; we're going to see what she says when she looks. His heals are still red. I asked about the cream when I set up the appointment. She said it might irritate him if there was an open wound. I told her that it had scabbed over and appeared to be healing. She said the cream should be ok, but she had never heard of it, and to keep an eye on it. She did tell me the other vet should have prescribed a topical antibiotic as well as the oral. Is there a good antibiotic cream we should be using?

I asked about rose hips for occasional treats. She said she didn't have any information on them so she wouldn't recommend it. Anyone have any solid sources for vet approved treats? I've given him the occasional raisin, maybe 2 last month. I'd like to be able to give him something special. He does have apple twigs and pumice stones to chew. Maybe just new woods to chew would be ok. Make me feel like I'm doing something to make him feel better. Am I being silly? Do you guys feel like you need to do something special for your chins when they are sick?

We both appreciate all of your advice and ideas. Thanks for reading my lengthy blabbering.

 

[BoundNoFtWaL]

I let him out to run about while I was cleaning his cage agian last night and his foot started to bleed again! It looked like it was doing better... We're seeing the vet tomorrow. Anyone else have to deel with bumblefoot? How long did it take to heal?

 

[AZChins]

I haven't dealt with any forms of foot infections in maybe four years. I can't remember how long it took before, probably a couple weeks.

 

[BoundNoFtWaL]

We’re back from the vet. It doesn’t look like he has an infection anymore, so we're stopping the Baytril. Yippee! He does have a small crack on the bottom of his right foot, but it's healing.
I started rubbing triple antibiotic ointment on it when it started bleeding. She said to continue to do that until I heals then I can continue with the Protecta Pad cream as long as there's no open wound.
Vet told me this isn't something that goes away quickly. It's like when we have calluses sometimes they are quick healing sometimes the skin is never the same as it was before. His feet are soft, which is good; as opposed to dry and infected. He'll still be getting his nightly foot rubs. But, he won’t be fighting me with the meds.
I have to make sure he stays on padded surfaces. She told me to keep an eye on him if I let him down on the tile floor, and not let him run there too long. I'll be putting a blanket down for him to run around on. The only carpet in our house is in the bedrooms. Stitch is in the living room.

I asked her about his hidey house too. She said the wood house should be ok as long as I make sure to keep it clean and he doesn’t camping out on top of it. I'm thinking I'll make a wooden one with a pillow on top I can slip an ice pack into. He doesn't like his chiller.

He's been laying on the support bar of the flying saucer to cool off. I think he may be using it as sort of a crutch, so there's not as much weight on his feet. I told the vet about that too. She said he maybe just trying to cool off, to hide (since I took his hidey house), and/or to take weight off his feet. She said the triple layer fleece blanket I have down should be enough cousin under his feet.

I’m going to try some double lined fleece tubes instead of wood perches. I think if I put the wood ones back in he’ll stay on them as much as possible. I asked about branches with foot weight distribution too. She said if he’s standing on them there’s still pressure on his back feet. With birds different sized branches helps to alleviate bumblefoot because the pressure points change with the size of branch they are standing on. She said if he’s not comfortable standing on them with the pressure he probably wouldn’t perch on them. I might get one just to see how he likes it and give him something to climb on in his cage. She also told me to put the tubes lower to the ground, that way he doesn’t have to hop really high to get into them. I’m guessing he’ll try to hop on top of them anyway. She also suggested getting some foam blocks for him to hop around on as long as he doesn’t eat them. If I did that I’d probably cover them in fleece. I’d rather not have to clean urine from foam though. He doesn’t like the single layer fleece hammock. I’m going to try to beef it up with 3 layers of fleece, and maybe put a piece of plexiglass in the middle to stiffen it up a bit for him.

I might take his saucer out and get a wheel, not sure about that yet though. If he’s not supposed to be on hard surfaces then maybe I’d need to line the wheel also.

I asked the vet about safe woods for chins or any information she might have for me to read. She’s going to email me. I’ll let you know what she sends me.

They did a poop test for parasites just in case. It came back clean. It was $20 and worth the peace of mind to me. She also checked his teeth with the scope (which he didn’t like), but they look good also.

 

[SugEr]

Thanks for posting all of this... Bubbles is having foot trouble too. We took him to the vet a couple of weeks ago and he told us that it may just heal... no luck, though.

Each time I think it's better, he bleeds a little again. Is it just regular over the counter triple antibiotic ointment you're using? Does your chin try to lick or bite at the treated parts? My vet said we'd have to try to wrap his feet if we use cream, but I can't imagine that will go over well.

Any ideas?

 

[Essentia]

Be careful with the antibiotic ointment, especially since you said they are healing and there is no more infection. If he eats it (and you say he has been chewing a bit on his feet) it can kill the bacteria in his belly. I would go with bag balm, or vitamin E. Bag Balm can be found in most Walmarts. If you can't find it, it can also be ordered offline. I like Bag Balm better than the vitamin E because it stays where you put it a bit better. You can also use a bit on his ears when they start to look dry.

 

[AZChins]

I agree...I'd be careful with the neosporin, but also you can use better things for the foot. My favorite thing to use on ears and feet is jojoba oil. That's because it soaks in well and it's edible.

 

[BoundNoFtWaL]

SugEr I hope your chinny's feet heal well. How many times have you been to the vet for it? How long has your chin had the problem? Yes it's Wal-Mart’s generic Neosporin. I make sure I rub it in well and there's no greasy feeling when I'm done.

I told this vet about the foot chewing. I've only seen him do it maybe twice in the last couple days. She said that it could be that his feet are bothering him if he's doing it a lot. They can prescribe him pain meds if he continues to do it, but they'd rather not put him on them as a preventative.

I asked her too about if it starts bleeding again. She said there's something I can get at the pet store to put on it that would stop the bleeding, like a liquid bandage. I can't remember the name though. I asked if I should bring him in again if it does start bleeding again. She said if it's really bad they could try to do the same thing, maybe put cream on it and wrap his feet also. I can just imagine a chin with wrapped feet... Either he'd be pop corning all over trying to get the crud off his feet or chewing them off. I did read somewhere about a chin owner who did have to have this done. They also put something on the bottoms of his feet, it was like a padded bandage I guess. He chewed the wrapping off but left the stick on bandage on the bottom of his feet alone. I'm just envisioning chinny shoes now. LOL

I thought about it killing the good bacteria in his belly Essentia. Thank you for touching on that. I am giving him probiotics still as well, I know it's not the same flora though. Vet said to continue with the probiotics if he seems stressed or if he's on meds, but normally it's not necessary. I do have a can of bag balm here I will switch over to now. I just started using the triple antibiotic after my vet said the first vet should have prescribed some to put on his feet, and after the foot started bleeding again. I was hoping it would kill any bacteria that might try to get into the cut while it was still open.


Susan where did you get the jojoba oil? Do you get it in capsules from a pharmacy, or is it a bottle? I have a bottle of calendula, teatree, and euculiptus oils around too. Was thinking they might be a little harsh on the tummy if he licked his feet though. I use the teatree on myself for cuts, burns, dry patches of skin. It does smell really strong though too.

 

[AZChins]

It's in a bottle, I usually go to a health food store for it. Whole Foods has it, other smaller stores should have it as well. The jojoba isn't harsh at all, it's very soothing and it's high in vitamin E...the vitamin E oil is good, but it's a little goopy. Either one would be just fine.

I guess if the foot starts bleeding you can always use some epsom salts to clean it up a bit and then put on the jojoba or other oil or cream. That will keep it from getting infected again.

Keep up the probiotics...that will help the chin's health tremendously. Poor little dude...I feel bad for his little feets.

 

[BoundNoFtWaL]

Ah. O-Kay I'll take a look for it. I'm all for the natural stuff. This Protecta Pad cream is actually nice, once you get it rubbed in it doesn't feel greasy.

The vet also told me I could put a little corn starch on his feet to stop the bleeding if I didn't have the liquid bandage stuff on hand. The bad thing about that is if there's a lot of bleeding it will tend to clump up to form a scab. Then you have to clean it off and it could start bleeding again. So, I'll be going to get some of the liquid bandage stuff for my emergency kit. I think as long as I keep his feet moisturized and off hard surfaces he should be ok.

I've never used Epsom salts on myself. Does it hurt in an open wound like salt water? I'd suspect it wouldn't sting as bad as peroxide, no? She didn't tell me what to clean his feet with before putting the creams on. Would saline solution be the same as Epsom salt water? I found the soaked cotton balls helped to keep him a little dryer than just letting him stand in the water by itself. If he wouldn’t stand completely flat on them I could pick up a few of the cotton balls and sort of wrap them around his feet while holding him.

They weighed him again he's 605 grams. The last vet weighed him on a cat scale.... I don't think he's lost any weight but I haven't been weighing him. I think he likes the probiotics. He'll eat more with them mixed in. I'm thinking about switching up his hay though. He picks through the Kaytee Timothy hay.

I'm hoping his feets don't give him anymore problems. I'll have to get him some more goodies to chew to keep his spirits up. I'll try to post some pics when I re-arrange/upholster his house.