Bladder stone

[ticklechin]

Calf manna has nothing to do with calcium, its a protein supplement not a calcium supplement, it has less calcium than Tradition and the same calcium than most chin pelllets. Calcium in manna is not the cause of stones so I don't know where you came up with that, because if that is the case then maybe its the Mazuri you feed, since it has about the same amount as manna.

Manna .7 min 1.2 max

Tradition 1.1 min 1.6 max

 

[AZChins]

And, the protein causes calcium to be processed differently and excreted. It has nothing to do with the calcium content, but the protein content and also the ingredients in the calf manna. It isn't always just about the actual calcium or mineral content, it's about the way that the ingredients and the protein and other minerals change the body chemistry.

 

[Sycamore Chins]

From what I've learned about kidneys, a high protein diet would cause more calcium to be retained, not excreted. Calcium is carried around by Albumin (a protein) and if albumin is high, blood calcium can be high (and renal calcium would be low), if albumin is low, blood calcium is low.
I really don't think Calf Manna has any higher chance of causing bladder stones.

 

[AZChins]

It isn't just about the calcium, Alicyn. It's that and the other ingredients. Given in high amounts the calf manna causes all sorts of issues. If it is used, it should be used very very sparingly. This is a well known fact at this point. About eight to nine years ago calf manna was all the rage to mix into food, some people mixing it as much as half and half with pellets. When it was popular there were many cases of chins prolapsing, having bladderstones and other odd things that would just pop up after just a few weeks of using more calf manna.

With chins it's a balancing act with their nutrition to keep everything where it should be. Too much of one thing can cause issues even if everything else is just what it should be.

If you do a google search on protein with it's impact on the calcium in the urine, there are articles about the subject. The unfortunate thing is that there probably aren't any studies or articles for chinchillas. However, the chemical processes of digesting protein are similar and cause similar changes in chins as well.

 

[Sycamore Chins]

Oh, I wouldn't touch Calf manna with a 10 foot pole, but is it trully contributing to bladder stones?

I did some digging! I love kidneys, so here we go.

(And I stand corrected)
In HUMANS, excess protein is associated with increased urinary calcium excretion. BUT you have increase the protein by ALOT to make a difference. Which is so weird, because if you don't consume enough protein you won't absorb enough calcium - very counterintuitive.
Also, animal protein causes more of an increase in calcium excretion than plant protein does (which it looks like calf-manna is plant proteins).

BUT no one knows how much protein in the diet is required by chinchillas, so honestly who knows if the protein in calf-manna would really cause a problem (it isn't THAT much higher than normal diets).

Also, researchers are thinking that the calcium absorption may not be affected at the intestine level, but that it is being pulled from the bones. So maybe THIS is the real reason to not feed calf manna, IF in fact the protein level is high enough to alter calcium absorption. I'll have to do some more digging.

 

[AZChins]

Definitely let us know if you find anything about the protein. It's so interesting how little things can affect things you'd never expect them to affect. Dietary issues are just like that.

 

[pamszoo]

Pinto had his surgery this am. He's doing really well tonite. Ate some hay and a few pellets on his own. I did handfeed about 20ml. So far so good!

 

[Snickers]

Glad he is doing well. I hope for a speedy recovery.

 

[AZChins]

That's great news!! I hope that he is back to normal very soon!!!

 

[pamszoo]

His stone next to a dime. I thought it was pretty big

 

[AZChins]

It is pretty big, I've seen bigger...but it's not a contest!

He must be so relieved to have that out. Is he eating on his own? I told my vet about him today when I took my April in.

 

[pamszoo]

He's eating hay on his own but not pellets yet. Im giving him cc wth some lifeline in it. At least he takes it pretty willingly now. It was a struggle when I started

 

[pamszoo]

bladder stone results

Finally got his results from the lab:
No nidus observed in this specimen
The stone is composed of Calcium Carbonate 100%

Incidently has anyone had dry eye issues when giving sulfa?

 

[Tanya]

Chins' alkaline urine favor the crystallization of phosphates and carbonates when adequate amount of these anions and corresponding cations, calcium and magnesium, are present. When pH is less than 6.5, calcium carbonate stones are less likely to form.

In addition to switching your chin to feed that contains less calcium and protein, I would also use acidifying Vitamin C supplement to help prevent the recurrence of calcium carbonate stones. A diet containing various grass hays and a lower percentage of pellets should also help prevent the recurrence of stones.

I think sulfa can cause dry eyes.