Attacking Breeding in animals vs breeding in humans

[Laurie]

Recently I've noticed anytime a new member mentions they have a male and female chin they've bred right away several members shoot out the standard questions: do you have pedigrees for them, do you know their history--malo or furchewing, can you afford a vet in case of an emergency, are you prepared to hand feed?

But whenever a member says I'm pregnant everyone says, Congratulations!

So why are we doing that? Why don't we say to someone who says there are pregnant, do you know the baby's families histories? Is there cancer, diabetes, obesity, mental illness, sexual or physical abuse? Do you have a college education, are you employed, do you have insurance? Do you believe in God, will you faith heal instead of treat medically? Will you keep them from being on a reality tv show?

We always think to correct members on the dangers of breeding animals but no one ever warns humans about the dangers of breeding themselves. Most of the above stated diseases are genetic. If you have a history of cancer or mental illness in your family you stand the chance of passing that onto your children and they their children and so on. In animals we try to correct this and prevent it from happening by simply not breeding those animals with genetic defects--yet we don't on the whole think of stopping that in human beings.

Why?

Why would you feel it's okay to say this to a person wishing to breed an animal and not say the exact same thing to a human being?

 

[3CsMommy]

I'm probably in the minority here, but with my family history of heart disease, cancer, obesity, and alcoholism/depression... I don't ever plan to breed myself either. I'm a substandard specimen, and since the "learned" medical doctors in this country won't perform voluntary hysterectomies without medical reason, or for that matter even tie my darn tubes until I'm 35, I just have to shell out the money for 2-3 kinds of birth control while in a relationship and fight for the right *not* to reproduce every time I go to a family reunion, wedding, baby shower, or work.

I also have 2 male chins to avoid the possibility of passing on their unknown genetic history, and don't plan ever to breed any pet. There are too many of them out there already unwanted and living in shelters (just like human children) for me to see the need of taking up species improvement as a hobby. The 'rejects' from breeding programs still make awesome pets, and that's all I want from an animal.

 

[eroomlorac]

Geeze, Laurie. What a subject to bring up. Why don't we question humans who are pregnant? Because it is everyone's constitutional right to have children, whether they could or should or have the ability to raiser them, etc. We are also assuming the humans made the choice to become pregnant and if not I would hope EVERYONE knows having sex can lead to pregnancy. Animals will breed without being able to reason out the genetics, health of the other animal, the result of a mating, etc. While we all can control the breeding of the animals in our care to ensure good health, conformation and temperment standards, we, of course, cannot control the breeding of the neighbors who just may happen to be idiots. There are no shows to judge the conformation standards of humans or whether they have any valueable and usable skills such as herding sheep, catching a frisbee, guarding property, pulling sleds, flushing or retrieving ducks, excellent pelts, etc.

Humans have choices and free wills and reasoning ability that animals do not have. I'm not saying all humans use their human brains wisely, but hopefully most humans decide what is best for them. Now, there are some humans who 'breed' like there's no tomorrow and breed just to get their genetics out there, but hopefully most humans have children to love and raise and make a positive impact on the people around them and in society in general.

Also, say a human DOES have some 'bad genetics' it is not unusual to fix our 'malo' with braces, our 'bloat', breathing difficulties, injuries and illnesses with surgery, meds, etc. We can reason out our limitations due to our physical illnesses and there is a wealth of options for people needing medical care. It's not so easy with an animal.

 

[hkkjstwcl]

Hi!!!

Your comment is very interesting, eroomlorac. It made me think. I have 6 baby/young chins, and two are pedigreed, but I am so brand new to chinchillas and am not going to breed them because it would be too much work for me, and I am not equipped for that. One of my chin may have a tooth problem. I will take him to a vet very soon... Anyway, I like to see babies, though. That's why I love when people post baby pictures on this forum!!:hug2::tantrum::girl::boy:

 

[eroomlorac]

Oh, geeze. I just realized it's a good thing humans aren't taken out of the gene pool for being 'substandard'. I am quite short and round. That, alone, would kick me out. Not quite the best specimen, to be sure!! Plus, I have a few medical maladies. YIKES!!!! Maybe I should have been spayed. :wacko:

 

[Laurie]

Carol, you know I love you just the way you are!
My question really is why do we so heartily berate someone for breeding an animal without them being very knowledgeable on the subject, when we don't do the same for human beings? A lot of forum members feel perfectly at home to tell someone why you shouldn't breed chins, they feel perfectly at home to discuss the dangers a pregnancy can occur, they what to know if they are equipped to handle hand feedings and such, YET we don't ever say this to a human.

We seem to be SO concerned as a collective whole on what should and should not occur in animal breeding, yet we simply smile or say congratulations to a human when we here they are "breeding"

Again why doesn't anyone jump in with are you equipped to breast feed? Do you have enough time, do you know full well the dangers of parenting?

No, no one ever says something like that. We say, Wow! congratulations.

We don't ask to see pedigrees or inquire about family histories we just ASSUME the two parents are knowledgeable, come from good breeding stock, and believe they will help to increase our gene pool to it's best.

We are more concerned about petowners and what they might bring into the pet/animal gene pool than we are humans.

And I just wonder why?

Why do we feel we have every right to question someone wanting to breed a chinchilla, yet we say nothing to someone increasing our human gene pool?

 

[macygray]

Animals have better genes than us!

 

[tunes]

My question really is why do we so heartily berate someone for breeding an animal without them being very knowledgeable on the subject, when we don't do the same for human beings?

Because we can't make the choice for another human being, whether to have kids or not. It's our responsibility to make the choice for our animals, and hopefully make the responsible one.

As Carol said, we have free will. Animals do not. We can choose to receive or not receive medical care. An animal doesn't have that choice, we have to make it for them. We can choose to euthanize them when their lives have run their course. It's too **** bad the same can't be said for humans. Instead they linger on in pain, or not knowing who or where they are, because it would be morally wrong (according to some) to end their suffering.

We all know of people who shouldn't breed, even right here on the forum. I'm sure you have followed the threads where they have been told over and over that that would not be the brightest idea. Did it make any difference? Of course not. A child will still be popped out and will suffer just like the pets do.

Also remember, even though we suggest to people that it's not the best thing to breed those specific animals - do they ever listen? No, they don't. They go right ahead and do whatever they want anyway. The same thing would happen if you tried to tell a human. You could say it until you're blue in the face. You could give reasons out the wazoo - and in the end - will it make one iota of difference? Nope.

 

[threewingedfury]

I understand why you would ask this, and I have to somewhat agree with you. I don't want to bring a child in this world who will end up with disabilities, no matter how bad I want a child. For example, I won't have children with my husband, nope, no way, not ever. His entire family has health problems, everyone seems to have cancer (his dad has 4 types of cancer, mother has cancer, uncles all have cancer), and I'd say 80% has 2-3 mental disabilities and everyone of them is on disability for something, including himself. Did I know this when I got married? Nope, didn't really find out things until about a year after I got married, which was my fault. Am I discriminating? Nope, I don't think so, it's my choice not to want to bring a child in this world who will have an increased risk of carrying on genes that I wouldn't want a child to have. My family is pretty healthy other than the fact that my mother is schizophrenic, which is really ironic that my husband's father, his brother and himself are also. I think it would be a bad decision on my part to bring a child into this world with that background, but this is just my opinion. I know that the odds may be pretty low, but I'm not gonna risk it. I would much rather adopt or just not have children. I have my chinnies, which is good enough for me.

Now - after I've said this, I hope that no one will bash me, I just want to mention that this is just my opinion in my situation. I don't judge anyone else when it comes to their children because it's their choice. I personally think that couples should have genetic testing done before thinking about having children. I've taken quite a few genetics courses, including a course called Genetics in Human Affairs, and after learning about genetic abnormalities in humans, it honestly scared me to have a child.

 

[ABBY W.]

I, too, understand why you would ask this. I am not having children with my husband--depression and obesity run in my family, and his has heart disease, diabetes, depression, autism, and schizophrenia. All of those have a genetic component. So our likelihood of producing a less then perfectly healthy child is higher than most.

I also believe that many of our societies' most serious problems are rooted in bad parenting. How many of our young men are growing up without fathers or male role models? As a result they are joining gangs and becoming criminals in droves because they think that's how men are supposed to behave. The are emulating the morons they see on TV because they don't have anyone else to learn from. Young women are becoming pregnant in their teens because their parents have failed to teach them that being "sexy" and "cool" isn't the most important thing.

In theory all of this leads me to believe that mnadatory parenting classes and genetic testing should be readily available. But that also leads to some sticky moral issues. Who determines what makes a good parent? If we say a person who is a carrier for down syndrome can't have children, do we also say someone with bad eyesight can't? Yes, it is the slippery slope argument. And, if you really want to get into eugenics, do we then say that people who are genetically desirable are required to have children?

The bottom line is, as much as I believe some people just shouldn't have children, it's not my choice to make. I would certainly not want someone making for me. There is also no clear "right" way to raise a child. They don't come with an instruction manual that says "when they do this, you do that". How many debates have there been about sex education, spanking, religious education, etc.? Clearly, we do not all agree on the best way to raise a child. In the end, I have to agree that humans are creatures of logic and free will, and thus have the right to make their own choices regarding child bearing and child rearing. Chinchillas, and any other mammal, just do what instinct dictates. We make the choices for them when we put them in a breeding situation.

It all just reminds of that line in the movie "Parenthood"--"You need a license to buy a gun, or to drive a car. Helll, you need a license to catch a fish! But any @#*hole can be a parent."

 

[ticklechin]

There are social programs for people who need it, there are none for animals.

 

[equus_peduus]

I think it comes from the "humans are superior to animals" mindset. I agree - most people who are having kids probably shouldn't, and if we held humans up to the standards that reputable breeders hold their animals to (whether it be dogs, cats, horses, cows, chinchillas, etc.), most people probably wouldn't be bred. Plus, a love match or a social match (in the case of an arranged marriage) probably isn't the best way to decide whether the children will better the species or not (witness the royal families of Europe). Oh, and there's a lot of nonpurebred humans out there... I am a mixed breed... might even call me a "designer human" ! (I'm a Gerengap!)XD

It's a difference in philosophy. Humans control animals, but humans don't control each other. Sort of. It becomes one of those things - if only "genetically superior" humans are allowed to reproduce, who decides that? Why do those people get to decide that? What happens if those people start to deny reproduction to certain people for reasons other than genetics (i.e., the system becomes corrupt)? It's a delicate subject - very much along the lines of, why can we offer the relief of euthanasia to our pets but not to other humans?

Some people think it's their God-given right to reproduce (don't think it's in the Constitution anywhere, and that only covers people in the US anyway). A right that no other human has the right to take away. And when there is attempt to put a throttle on reproduction, people try to find a way around it (witness China).

I happen to agree. I don't have as many problems as some people, but I'm not sure that I'm an ideal breeding specimen either

 

[equus_peduus]

There are social programs for people who need it, there are none for animals.

This did not apply 50 or 100 or 300 years ago. People have been selectively breeding animals for hundreds and thousands of years. People have been breeding themselves for longer - but with more to an eye toward social ramifications than physical and mental improvement.

 

[starleomach]

I think there are a ton of people out there who should not breed themselves. But being a species like we are with free will they can decide that themselves. My girls in with a male can't say. "hey I don't want a baby, lets use protection" Humans can. Humans make choices. sometimes it is the wrong one. I have worked with children my whole life and seen many who's biggest disability was having the parents they have. I wish people considered it more.

 

[eroomlorac]

if only "genetically superior" humans are allowed to reproduce, who decides that? Why do those people get to decide that? What happens if those people start to deny reproduction to certain people for reasons other than genetics (i.e., the system becomes corrupt)?

Isn't that what Hitler tried to do?

 

[equus_peduus]

Isn't that what Hitler tried to do?

I think that's part of what Hitler tried to do. I almost put that example in the post, but ended up not. Heh.

Oh, and while humans control breeding of captive animals, we don't control breeding of wild animals... and some of those pairs probably shouldn't reproduce (they have 'free will' to some extent, and while selection criteria basically is "how well have you survived so far, and are you likely to continue to do so?" still probably doesn't eliminate genetic diseases....

 

[Cory]

This thread reminds me of the movie Idiocracy

 

[threewingedfury]

This thread reminds me of the movie Idiocracy

Haha.. I absolutely love that movie though. It makes you laugh when you're in a bad mood.

 

[FiaSpice]

I'm probably in the minority here, but with my family history of heart disease, cancer, obesity, and alcoholism/depression... I don't ever plan to breed myself either. I'm a substandard specimen, and since the "learned" medical doctors in this country won't perform voluntary hysterectomies without medical reason, or for that matter even tie my darn tubes until I'm 35, I just have to shell out the money for 2-3 kinds of birth control while in a relationship and fight for the right *not* to reproduce every time I go to a family reunion, wedding, baby shower, or work.

Wow that's a tough choice. I know sadly people will look at you odly and still ask you when you're gonna have kids.

It was a discution with my ex. We both had diabetes in our families, hearth problem, both short-sighted etc... But the discusion wasn't pushed further cause anyway we're not together anymore.

 

[Ash]

My best friend and I are on opposite ends of the spectrum here, also. She doesn't want kids, not for medical reasons, but she doesn't want to put a child through all the **** that the world is slowly deteriorating into. I, on the otherhand, do want kids one day. I have a strong mothering instinct, and I've admitted it's probably selfish when looking at it from her mindset, but I do want kids.


And we don't always not berate someone. I remember on CnQ everyone jumping on someone when she announced she was pregnant because she didn't even have the financial means to support a chinchilla, let alone a child. But you're right, often times we tell people 'congratulations'. Probably because we assume they know what they're doing.