Has anyone else attended MCBA Nationals this year and now had chin deaths?

5-6 weeks ago, had a bout with bacterial enteritis, and since then, have talked with people and found several people who went to Nationals, as I did, and since have had unexplained chin deaths (as in, more than the occasional one). Not sure if that's just a coincidence or not, so I thought I'd ask...

Was just wondering if anyone else who went to Nationals this year experienced more-than-usual unexplained chin deaths, and if you did, if you happened to determine what the cause was?

I did. Unfortunately no cause was pinpointed but I had chins who quit eating, drinking, pooping. Also worth mentioning the girl whose herd I bought was at Nat's also.

I know of one other person, for sure, who went to Nationals, and who just messaged me about having animals dying. So far, no cause yet, but she thinks feed, rather than something from the show. But... that said, I do know that she brought animals home from the show.

In my opinion I would think if some bug was caught from the show in March you would have seen problems long before the time frame you have mentioned. It could be possible.

That would be one heck of a long incubation period???

I believe that a chin can be a carrier of whatever this is and not be affected. I had a male that I bred here (never shown) in with one of the new girls that I brought home from Nationals. That pair was perfectly fine together. The female was about to litter so I moved the male to a different cage with two other girls that I bred who were also never shown (they were 2 of the ones I had segregated during my first round of problems). Within 48 hours of introducing that male one of the girls started showing symptoms and subsequently passed away. The other had mushy poo but survived. Both are fine now.

I think people grossly underestimate how long it can take for a chinchilla to show symptoms of problems brought in to the herd.

I agree that it can take time for some things to show up Claire but what would take 5 months or more to surface? I am a nurse with a Masters Degree by profession and do realize that some disease processes take quite a while but unless it is something pretty obscure I can't think of many things communicable that chins carry that would take that long to surface. I am not arguing with you, I am just curious as to what organism/disease/parasite you are thinking about?

If the infection was parasitic, such as coccidia, then it is possible-carriers have the parasite already in the digestive tract in small numbers, the stress of the show and the stress of the doings before cause a proliferation, it can be silent with no symptoms and transmitted. Stress again in the recipient, the process starts over again.

Its just odd we have not heard anything about this until just recently and no info on what the problem is yet. I am sure their are things out there that could cause problems but I have not heard of any that stay inactive for months and then you have multiple deaths all of a sudden. It would be nice if the real problem was identified in the necropsy so we could quit speculating as to what may or may not be the problem and what and where it started. If anyone has more info and would like to share with me that info I may have some better people to check things with without costing an arm and a leg.

I had problems long ago and I talked to many people about it...like I said before at first I thought it was a feed issue. It was not until time passed, I segregated chins, moved them around, added new ones, etc that I made these observations. Again the ones who went through the first round of issues were totally unaffected during the second round. The male and female who I mentioned in my above post were like I said perfectly fine together for several months and it wasn't till she was about to litter and moved him to the cage with the previously segregated girls that I was able to really see that he HAD to be a carrier of whatever this is...3 of those 4 chins involved in that scenario were born here and never left my house the 4th was a new one brought home from the show...I am no vet by any means but that one certainly isn't rocket science... Within 48 hours of introducing that male to the 2 other girls one started showing symptoms and this was just back in Sept. The new girl from Nationals is STILL fine and went on to raise two beautiful healthy kits! If someone would like to test her I would gladly offer access to her...

We had a necropsy done on the one chin, which showed bacterial enteritis, but I wouldn't think that would take 5 months to brew... but... I'm not a vet. And who's to say, just cause that's what killed the one, that that is even what killed the other 4 chins. Just don't know.

As for the issue of me adding new animals in Aug prior to my second round of issues...again I have no way of knowing for certain but it is certainly possible that the herd I added went through the same thing I did. There were deaths prior to the acquisition that were attributed to other things but my personal belief is that she could have very well gone through the same thing I did but it just got chalked up to other things. She was at the show too and bought animals from some of the same people that I did.

From what I have heard from many vets (and this is true for many, many species - not just chins), coccidia is a very common parasite that can be carried and not make an animal ill unless they are stressed or otherwise ill. They also typically do not shed the oocytes at all times so multiple fecal floats are necessary to detect it. If you do not have fecal floats done to determine what the agent of infection is, I don't know how it can be treated effectively. Coccidia is pretty easy to treat once identified from my understanding as long as you are paying attention and notice that the chins are getting loose or smelly stools.

Coccidia can stay with a chin for years and years and it won't impact the chin until they are weakened with age or stress or other problems. A healthy chin could have it and not show any symptoms. Like Juanita said...

A breeder could have a mother chin with coccidia and no symptoms and then the babies end up with coccidiosis later. Albon is a very effective treatment for coccidia. It doesn't have too many effects so the drinking water could be treated and a herd of chins could be very effectively treated for it in a short time.

I've heard of ranchers treating their herds with Albon and other antibiotics from time to time to prevent/treat parasites and digestive issues.

EMSChins said:

I agree that it can take time for some things to show up Claire but what would take 5 months or more to surface? I am a nurse with a Masters Degree by profession and do realize that some disease processes take quite a while but unless it is something pretty obscure I can't think of many things communicable that chins carry that would take that long to surface. I am not arguing with you, I am just curious as to what organism/disease/parasite you are thinking about?

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I have a professional clinical background also - I use my clinical curiousity, reasoning, and decision making skills when working with chinchillas. It's one of the things that makes keeping chins interesting I think - there's always something to explore.

Dawn's post has given the kind of things I was thinking about (Giardia being a silent killer, for example) but more importantly, unless someone was weighing chins weekly/bi-weekly an owner probably would not know if there was a problem......
Given the little we actually know about chins, it is entirely possible for probems to be hidden sub-clinically and to only show when the chin is very ill or dead in the cage. Let's face it, we see it when members post for help - a little bit of digging often uncovers subtle signs and symptoms that may not have been noticed.

Am I suggesting that 5 months for a problem to show itself is impossible? Nope.
Am I suggesting that 5 months for a problem to show itself is possible? Maybe.

I am utterly convinced that 4 weeks for quarantine is ineffective though.


The truth is we just don't know enough about chinchillas' ability to deal with illness but searching for a common denomenator has to be the beginning of the search for clues if a necropsy has proved inconclusive but other people are also experiencing similar deaths.

This is not unreasonable, surely?


Throughout the years of being on various international chinchilla forums there have been too many similar stories of chins being brought into herds and then sudden, unexplained deaths occurring months afterwards for there not to be something real going on in that time. Giardia is one such possibility but I think there are others, not proven.
There may be completely unrelated issues going on in a shorter time frame but that's not proven either.

We don't really know how chinchilla guts truly function, what bacteria are involved in gut health, what happens to pathogenic bacteria, whether the chinchilla gut handles pathogenic bacteria/parasites for a while and then fails for other reasons ..... the list goes on.


We may not have solid clinical evidence to prove it (as with most things with chinchillas!) but we do have episodic, anecdotal evidence of the same issues (usually unexplained gut issues with sudden, multiple deaths) coming time and again - often with no changes in food or other factors. The deaths seem to come "out of the blue".

I will continue to quarantine any rescue which comes into my home for up to 16 weeks - monitoring behaviour, droppings, eating patterns, weight gain/loss etc etc over that period of time - because I will not risk the rest of my herd.

In the meantime I really do hope people who have experienced unexplained chins deaths recently can find the reasons - there's nothing worse than walking into the chinchilla room in trepidation, wondering (if) which of the animals has died.


Edited to add:
Is food a factor? Do you use the same food?

Round 1 of problems I did a cold turkey switch...still had deaths.

I had a fecal done...showed absolutely nothing! Took samples from existing chins, new chins, chins on Panacur, chins not on Panacur... zip, zilch, nada, nothing... Better procedures need to be developed/implemented for treating chins on a much broader level.... Having fecal floats done over and over is a bit unrealistic and they could STILL come up negative...MORE RESEARCH NEEDS TO BE DONE WITH CHINS!!!

Dear Drug Companies...start researching now to develop a chinnie "vaccine" that works and you'll make millions...invest in research NOW!

When I started with chins in the 90s I remember ranchers telling me that some herds were just about immune to certain bacteria and new chins introduced into such a herd could have deaths because of differing bacteria levels around barns and in watering systems. Back then I was told to take things slow with new chins. Slowly acclimate them to a new environment because the stress and new bacteria could be a little tough on them.

When moving a large amount of animals from a ranch it was expected that some would die. A lot of what would be considered stress deaths could possibly be infection especially in the gut since the chins are so sensitive and susceptible. Too much bacterial growth can lead to toxic shock even without diarrhea or other signs. I can imagine this being a cause of a chin new to a herd dying since their gut motility slows with stress.

Claire...you could probably quarantine some animals for six months or more and they would still be able to theoretically pass something on to other animals. The longer the quarantine period with new animals, the better. Even if they aren't harboring something horrible that is going to kill other chins, the new chins will benefit so they can calm down and not be exposed to something in their time of stress. The first person I bought a chin from said that quarantine goes both ways...it's to protect all the chins.

I do wish that unexplained deaths would be taken more seriously by a lot of breeders. I'm not pointing any fingers, especially since most of the culprits have sold out of chins by now. It is important to have the necropsies and diagnostic tests done. Passing dangerous parasites/viruses/bacteria back and forth to breeders and pet owners and rescues seems so reckless. (I don't even know what to think about someone knowingly bringing a sick animal to a show...)

AZChins said:

Claire...you could probably quarantine some animals for six months or more and they would still be able to theoretically pass something on to other animals. The longer the quarantine period with new animals, the better. Even if they aren't harboring something horrible that is going to kill other chins, the new chins will benefit so they can calm down and not be exposed to something in their time of stress. The first person I bought a chin from said that quarantine goes both ways...it's to protect all the chins.

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Oh, I agree - for me quarantine is about a lot more than just health and I often feel like I'm banging my head against the proverbial brick wall but I keep at it.
16 weeks also gives me plenty of time to get to know the chin (behaviour, personality, habits) and to allow them to settle, for example. It allows for slower weigh gain/loss trends to show too plus allows for the 111 days possible pregnancy (in the case of females brought in as rescues).

I do wish that unexplained deaths would be taken more seriously by a lot of breeders. I'm not pointing any fingers, especially since most of the culprits have sold out of chins by now. It is important to have the necropsies and diagnostic tests done. Passing dangerous parasites/viruses/bacteria back and forth to breeders and pet owners and rescues seems so reckless. (I don't even know what to think about someone knowingly bringing a sick animal to a show...)

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I also agree with you on this - unexplained deaths should be investigated and sometimes the secrecy around such sensitive subjects is understandable but also unhlepful - sharing info has got to be of benefit to everyone and pointing fingers is counterproductive.



It's also worth considering in all of this that things like aflotoxins could have an effect on health and may be (in part) responsible for "unexplained" deaths since they can be difficult to diagnose even with necropsy ...... just a thought.

Aflotoxins could very well be a part of it when you consider shortages of hay and grain due to the drought conditions in some areas of the country. Is whats going into the feed as good of quality as it should be?