TOV ebony inheritence question... need a clear answer if i can have one please!!

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wischin

Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2009
Messages
13
Hello,

Recently I have purchased after looking for a while, a Dark Ebony TOV Male who has a very good background, pedigree, and was transpotred from a few states from here. When he first came, I gave him his room and own cage of course and let him take a long time to get used to being here. He was purchased to add to my small breeding herd. he is going on about two years and 5 months right now. I seen his picture and he looked exceptional. He was no dissapointment when he came home either, his tempermant is what I requested of the ranchers whom I aquired him from, and picturs do not do him justice. His mother was a black velvet, the father a homo extra dark ebony.

He is very very dark black, but his hair feels very different. I am going to upfront let everyone know until now i have NEVER known, experimented, or gotten into ANY TOV genes, and I do not know much, so I have been very hesitant in breeding him. I did breed him with two exceptional females I have (one is a standard and the other is a homo beige, both huge and bigger than even he )and he produced with the standard a baby that almost looks as if she is TOV.. if I understand right, TOV means they get lighter towards the bottom but it blends in, there is almost a mask or you can see where the fur is a little bit lighter on the side.

Two girls were born. One is a regular standard, and looks just like mom, but you would think the standard born would be of the standard mother, but it was not, she was born of the beige mother. This alone makes me wonder if she carries what recessive traits to her... beige, ebony, tov??. The other one,from the standard, who gestated two weeks longer although they mated the very same day weighed almost 15 more grams at birth than her older half sister, and she is not standard.

As she has grown and it now has been two months, she appears to be almost what a person would say is medimum HOMO ebony, it is pitch black but a lighter shade of it, and she also gets lighter as it goes down, however her belly is not white, it is a cool shade of black I have never seen, it is as close to charcoal color I have ever seen, the hue is a very smokey color that you might say is grey but it is darker than that and for some reason everyone who sees her thinks it is a very weird color. She is still allowed to drink milk, over two months now, and shows NO signs at a current 374 grams of stopping drinking milk, mom shows no signs of wanting her to stop feeding or to stop producing the milk. Her fur is the most dense so far I have had in a baby, and I wonder if she inherited the TOV feature because it feels plush and different, like her fathers only MUCH stronger since the mother improved the quality greatley.You can also see the masking or pattern but only very lightly and you have to look close, of the lightning of the color until you turn her over and that is where the neatest color is...the fur is very very dense, , she is huge, and her stomach has this color that again can only be described as smokey, some kind of ebony but a beautiful color. I will take pics if anyone wants to see them.

I have read now in so many different places I dont know what to believe and my vet, Paul Yehle, who does specialize in exotics but told me without hesitation he knows nothing at all about breeding an ebony or possible EBONY TOV to another ebony TOV, because I also have ONE other female with TOV qualities, but I have heard breeding a black velvet to another is lethal, but if these have ebony in them does that mean that there is still a lethal factor? I have been looking at a female who is beautiful and is also listed as an extra dark TOV, in her picture I see the difference between the dark and extra dark, and it is from the same ranch. I am pondering purchasing her but wondering about them breeding together because of the TOV genes, and I am also unclear as to whether the standard he made is any kind of carrier of tov, or ebony, since her father was TOV ebony, and the mother is a homo beige, but what came out was a baby that looked like the beige's mother, a standard. They even share many facial and personality quirks and traits.

Anyone who can shed some light on this I would love to hear from. I am sorry for the length but I want to make sure that I give good information to go off of, and I will never mate him with any female, ebony or TOV unless I know it is not lethal. Any advice would be appreicated. So far I have read 5 different "credible" experiences, and my mcba binders are so full but I cannot find a specific title listed for this. Thank you in advance for taking the time to read this :thumbsup:
 
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Ok.... I'm not sure about the TOV thing, I'm still new at colors. But I have a question. In the last paragraph you talk about a homo beige. But you state that the mother of the homo beige was a standard...... So wouldn't that make the beige a hetero beige? Forgive me if I'm wrong..... Colors still confuse me
 
If the beige mother produced a standard kit, she is a hetero beige (she must be a very light phased hetero beige mistaken as a homo beige). It is not possible for a homo beige to produce a standard offspring - all offspring would have a beige gene.

TOV is a separate allelle from ebony on different locations on whatever chromosome they're on. TOV has a lethal factor in homozygous form. It does not matter what other genes the chin possesses, whether it has ebony, beige, white (which is also lethal in it's homozygous form), violet, etc. Breeding a TOV eb to another TOV eb (or TOV anything, really), you have a 25% chance of homozygosity resulting in death/resorption of the fetus (at least that is what is believed what happens to kits homozygous for a lethal factor gene).

The kit you described as "medium homo ebony" would just be a medium ebony or perhaps a TOV ebony. A "homo ebony" AKA "extra dark ebony" is solid black all the way around from back to belly. If a TOV HOMO ebony, she would be so dark, you would not know if she is TOV because the dark ebony color would mask any gradations in color along the side - and the only way to know if she was TOV would be to breed her and she produced a TOV kit. It sounds like she is not a HOMO ebony (extra dark ebony) though since you can see a gradation in color. She is likely a medium ebony or perhaps a TOV ebony.
 
I recommend you read over MCBA's article on genetics, because there are so many incongruities with what you're saying it's going to take forever to respond to. You're throwing around 'recessive' and 'homo' and all sorts of terms but obviously don't understand what they mean.
Go to this site: http://www.mutationchinchillas.com/
Click on 'Your chinchilla' and 'Genetics'

Sort out those terms and then maybe we'll have an idea what you're talking about. Also, pictures would help.
 
:clap:Oh my goodness! For once I was kind if right about a color! Sorry for being so off subject.... But it is all starting to make sense!
 
Your colors have me horrifically confused and I breed TOV ebs, ebs and beiges....To start non of your animals are homo, the homo eb that is light..not a homo eb. Any pairing can produce standards (almost but you don't have the exceptions there so nothing for you to worry about now) Tov anything shoudl not be bred to tov anything unless you really really really know what you are doing genetically (which you do not) Just like no white to white
 
I am going to thow a question in.
If you breed to ebs than you should get a %100 that it will be an ebony (most likely hetero, buy MAYBE a homo). Is that right? Has anyone bred two ebs and gotten a standard?
 
Thank you AZChins.
Is there any possibility that if you have a standard kit that is out of two ebs that it could be an eb? Does that make sense? :)
 
A standard that is an ebony...like...water that is grass? Just messing with you :)
 
mychinchillas said:
Thank you AZChins.
Is there any possibility that if you have a standard kit that is out of two ebs that it could be an eb? Does that make sense? :)
Click to expand...

It is either a standard or an ebony...or a standard eb/carrier.
You can't have both because you can't "mix them". A standard has a white belly, an eb has an eb belly. A standard eb/carrier typically falls into the "standard with a dirty belly" category...which is near the end of the show table.

Tennyson, love the comment!
 
Ha I need to learn to remember to actually put real information in my reply-I meant to send that same answer back, but then I got the "try to be funny" urge and forgot all about what was really being discussed-oops lol
 
Like I said. I am sorry I didn't explain that very well.

I have heard of people having standard (very obvious) babies from ebony parents and as they get older their bellies darken and they turn in to ebs with a strong color. Has anyone else heard of this?
 
Let me try to help you with a few of the basics. I'll try to put them in simplified terms. Then as you read genetics, it might make more sense.

In chins, among the common genes, the dominant ones are beige, white, and tov. The recessive ones are violet and sapphire. If a gene is dominant, it can't be carried. Gene mutations show up in pairs in each animal (including ourselves).

If a gene is dominant, a chin that receives one copy of that mutation from either or both parents will show that color in its coat. For instance, if a chin gets a beige mutation gene from its mother but none from its father, it will still be beige. If it gets one from each parent, then it will still be beige but will be termed a homo beige. The term homo means the same (two beige genes), and the term hetero means different (meaning one beige and one non-beige).

If a gene is recessive, the chin must get one of that gene from each parent or it will never show that color in its coat. For instance, a kit must get one violet gene from its mother *and* one from its father to be violet. If one parent has no violet anywhere in its pedigree, you cannot get a violet kit.

Now in your case where you say you have a homo beige. Beige is dominant, and homo means it has two beige genes. The parent has to give one of those genes to each kit, and since they're both beige, that parent will *always* pass a beige gene to each kit, and each kit will always be beige (at least hetero beige but could also be homo beige if both parents give it a beige gene). Because your kit is a standard, we know the parent was only hetero beige and not homo beige.

Now to a simple discussion of tov and lethal. TOV is dominant, and no one has had a homo TOV. Thus, it is believed that TOV is homozygous lethal. That means a chin cannot be homo TOV and cannot have two TOV genes as we see in beige. It is believed that the kits who got two TOV genes (one from each parent) die in the womb and are not born. So if you were to breed two TOVs together, in a litter of four, statistically using a Punnett square you could expect one kit to be standard, two kits to be TOV, and one kit not to be born. Your litter would be about 25% smaller than normal, but you would not have diseased or crippled kits from this pairing just due to the fact that you bred two TOVs together.

Now to ebony. This *gene* is not so clear-cut to understand. People throw around the terms homo, extra dark, etc. It is believed that multiple genes make up what we call ebony. Unfortunately there are supposedly dominants and recessives mixed in together. Thus, we refer to these purely by phenotype (what they actually look like) and not by their genotype. It's best to get rid of homo with them (and homo is most often used to describe extra dark ebonies). Most people use light, medium, dark, and extra dark to discuss them. Belly color is definitely used to see whether the gene is present. A dark belly generally indicates at least some presence of an ebony gene especially if you've got a show breeder who breeds for white bellies on standards, beiges, etc. Extra darks are so dark that they "mask" the presence of the tov gene. You can only know if an extra dark ebony is tov through breeding and seeing what pups you get. So you'll just want to look at coat color including belly color when referring to your ebonies.

>>>Two girls were born. One is a regular standard, and looks just like mom, but you would think the standard born would be of the standard mother, but it was not, she was born of the beige mother.

This proves that your beige is hetero beige.

>>>This alone makes me wonder if she carries what recessive traits to her... beige, ebony, tov??.

Beige and tov cannot be carried because they are dominant and not recessive. She does not carry them. Ebony is a collection of genes, so the term "carried" doesn't mean much.

>>>As she has grown and it now has been two months, she appears to be almost what a person would say is medimum HOMO ebony, it is pitch black but a lighter shade of it,

Throw out the homo. It doesn't mean much, but homo generally refers to extra dark ebony. It appears this girl would more appropriately just be called a medium ebony.

>>>her stomach has this color that again can only be described as smokey, some kind of ebony but a beautiful color. I will take pics if anyone wants to see them.

This would again give credence to the fact that she has some ebony in her.

>>>knows nothing at all about breeding an ebony or possible EBONY TOV to another ebony TOV,

Posting pictures would help those on this forum identify such a chin. I've got a TOV ebony born here. In mine the color is distinct enough that it's pretty easy to identify. Others are not so.

>>>because I also have ONE other female with TOV qualities, but I have heard breeding a black velvet to another is lethal, but if these have ebony in them does that mean that there is still a lethal factor?

A chin would not have "TOV qualities." A chin is either TOV or it's not. There is no middle ground The gene is dominant and should be visible in the coat. Posting pictures would help people on this forum identify whether she is TOV or not.

And yes, as stated above, TOV to TOV is generally believed to produce 25% homozygous lethal pups that will not be born. There are varying opinions on whether this pairing is good to do or not, and you can read those elsewhere.

>>>I am also unclear as to whether the standard he made is any kind of carrier of tov, or ebony, since her father was TOV ebony, and the mother is a homo beige, but what came out was a baby that looked like the beige's mother, a standard. They even share many facial and personality quirks and traits.

Again, the kit would not be a tov carrier. It can be an ebony carrier, but you should see the color in the coat and definitely in the belly if ebony is there. And there would be no beige influence from the heterozygous beige mother. (And the fact that the "homo" beige's mother was standard also confirms she's a hetero and not homo beige.)

>>>I will never mate him with any female, ebony or TOV unless I know it is not lethal.

Again, "lethal" is not always considered a negative. Some believe the "homozygous lethal" kit(s) is absorbed by the mother adding nutrition to the mother and that it is also a benefit that she has a smaller litter to care for (less strain on the mother and perhaps stronger resulting kits). You just need to understand what homozygous lethal means and make an informed decision.

And ebony is not believed to be lethal. If you want extra dark ebonies, you'll actually want to breed two ebonies together.
Linda
 
The OP needs to learn basic chin care, ethics and what is right or wrong before being taught genetics, JMO.
 
His fur feels different and his Tov offspring's fur will feel different because of the TOV.

It is called Touch of Velvet because it causes the fur to be velvety in texture. Some standard x Tov lines have been bred out enough to not make a noticeable difference between a Black Velvet and a standard, but you can usually tell when it shows in ebonies and whites.
 
ticklechin said:
The OP needs to learn basic chin care, ethics and what is right or wrong before being taught genetics, JMO.
Click to expand...

I agree. It bothers me when "breeders" don't have a basic understanding of genetics. Please, PLEASE learn about genetics BEFORE mixing genes by breeding any further. Alice Kline's compilation "Basic Genetics and History of Mutation Chinchillas" would be a great place to start, as well as reading the threads in the breeding forum.
 
Abby, how do you agree with Dawn? She doesn't think the OP should be learning genetics, she thinks she needs to be learning how to care for chinchillas, period.
 
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