Spontaneous mutation?

[Whimsy]

I have, what appears to be a black velvet/ebony cross baby. Cricket was born on 8/4/11 and her coloring has only gotten more distinct. The issue is, neither of her parents is a black velvet.

Her mother is an extra dark ebony white and father is a Shoot's extra dark standard. Knowing that black velvet is a dominant color and that one of her parents has to BE a velvet for an offspring to occur, how is this possible?

There is no way the mother was exposed to a different male. And even though she "might" have the black velvet gene hiding under the white, neither of her parents was a black velvet either (and the mother has no tell-tale paw spats).

I'm stumped... unless this baby just has an unusually dark mask and veiling. Could this be a spontaneous, first generation mutation? They've got to start somewhere.

 

[6Dusters]

I actually saw this recently at another breeders herd. The male is fully white from head to tail. The female is tan.
And out came a brown velvet. Dad has TOV hidden somewhere. The female had been with another male and no TOV was produced.

 

[VolunteerChin22]

Interesting. That kit definitely looks tov.

 

[mishalaa]

Paw spats are not tell-tale. Especially in whites.

More than likely, the mother is a TOV white eb. One of her parents had to have been a white as well and was probably a TOV white. White is very effective at hiding TOV, and I know Shoots crossed whites and blacks a lot trying to get darker markings/spots on his whites.

Spontaneous mutations do happen, but to have one that produces viable offspring is not often, even less often that it mimicks a mutation we already have.

 

[Riven]

Agreed with Mish

 

[jags]

Mish is right as I have seen it many times here. This is one reason pedigrees can be so important as sometimes what you see is not what you have.

 

[Spoof]

Agree with Mish, Tov loves to hide in white lines. So do v/c and s/c - you could be breeding what you thought was a normal ebony or standard line for four or five generations put that fifth generation with a violet and get violets.

Have seen it happen with bizarre frequency.

Would love to see pics of the mom.

 

[mark miller]

What are the parents of the white eb mother listed as? How far back (generations) do you have on the white eb. The TOV gene has to be carried by the white. Whites do often hide the TOV gene. I've never heard of a standard being able to carry a TOV gene without expressing it in color. If it was a new TOV mutation gene popped out, it would most likely just be a black spot somewhere, not a fully expressed TOV gene like yours. Maybe, the TOV gene was carried through the eb. It's definitely there and has to be in the background somewhere.

 

[Dreamlite]

I agree, the white had to have hid the tov gene. If there is a long line of whites on the eb white side its possible it was just passed down but not noticed. I have a tov pw male who had a bv great grand sire and he throws great bv and brown velvet babies.

 

[Godins Chinchillas]

I've had it happen to except I did some investigating. I had bought a pink white and she kept getting darker and darker. Well 2 litters later she had a brown velvet. Dad was a pure standard. Well I emailed the breeder and 3 generations down a white was bred to a black and the white covered the gene up. My guess would be the same. Somewhere there is blk in the mother's line that is being masked by the white.

 

[starleomach]

White covers TOV as does Dark Ebony.

 

[Whimsy]

I found it!
I have the pedigree on the mom that goes back 5 generations. It looks like the mother is hiding the TOV after all. Three generations back is listed a "black white" from a mosaic and BV cross. Their offspring is listed as an ebony/white so must be hidden there and the subsequent kit (who is Cricket's mother). So that's two prior generations of ebony white without showing the hidden TOV. Bingo! Mystery solved. I now have a confirmed extra dark ebony white TOV mother with a TOV ebony baby.

 

[Godins Chinchillas]

Congrats!!

 

[Terbear24]

Yes I also have a nice white ebony that will occasionally pop out TOV's.... 2 generations down there is a black velvet in the lines.