Selling chins known to carry genetic issues to other breeders

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Riven

Bad Chin
Joined
Jan 29, 2009
Messages
3,584
Location
Central Nebraska
I was wondering other people's thoughts on this. Do you think it's ethical to sell/trade or otherwise move animals that you know carry genetic issues such as malo into another breeding herd where the breeder doesn't care or doesn't understand the implications of it on the chins down the line?

I know my thoughts on it, but I'd like to hear other ideas on it as well.
 
No. Those animals should be sold to pet only homes, or otherwise allowed to live out their natural life without procreating, and passing the genetic issues to future generations. Future generations will suffer the pain of these conditions, and un-knowing pet owners will suffer the heartache and expense of having to care for ill animals that they have bonded with.
 
Definitely not. I am not sure if they should be sold to pet home only what if they decide to breed if though you tell them not to. I myself would just keep them even if they take up space.
 
What pet owner in their right mind would want a genetic mess of a chin that has malo, those chins should be stuck at the breeder forever, you bred them you either put them down or keep them period. I got one of those "famous" genetic mess chins that everyone but me knew the breeder bred those types, what a nightmare for a pet owner to deal with and what a scuz the breeder was for selling them to a pet owner and if the pet owner actually WANTS a malo chin then you need your head examined.
 
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A furchewer I will sell as a pet but anything life threatening like malo I will keep till they are readyfor euth. I don't see how a chin that's not gonna live a full life should ever be sold if you know about it. I had a female that developed malo and I contacted every person who bought her kits. None chose to return them but I made it very clear about the situation. Fur chewing and malo are the only genetic issues I've seen but I'm sure there are many others.
 
I will sell furchewers to pet homes (has only happened once -- sold her and her kit to a pet home), as I will sell our one female that has not gotten in milk twice to a pet home. But as for genetic health issues -- if a chin was to pop up malo out of the blue, that chin would be pulled from breeding and they would be held onto here for their natural lives. Like the previous poster, I would contact the people that had recent kits out of the female and ask if they would like a refund.

I would never sell a genetic issue chin to another breeder for use in breeding, I feel that would be horribly unethical. When I'm buying my breeder chins, I buy with the belief that the chins I am buying are healthy -- I don't ask, but I presume that a malo chin would not be offered up as a breeder -- and I would never want to deceive anyone by selling them a chin that is less than perfectly healthy and genetic-issue free (as far as I know).
 
Is it done? Sure is, and not just by the middle sized herds either...no, but the big boys. I know this for a FACT. Not all, no but it HAS been done.

It should not, never ever, be done by anyone. Period. If you know an animal is being purchased with intent to breed it should be breeding quality. Part of breeding quality is genetic health. I've sold babies to people that wanted to breed, eventually. They've been warned on proper age AND proper adult evaluation of quality. After that I feel it's their responsibility.

There has to be accountability. Keep people informed. Don't try to hide the crap by selling and not telling. Give full disclosure on animals that are intended for breeding.
 
Chins with genetic issue

I agree also with some of the previous posters. That's just a scummy thing to do, not to mention not ethically correct. If you have one with Malo, either keep it as a pet until the end of it's life or if it's that far along put it to sleep so it's not in pain. Fur chewing is one then but not necessarily life threatening whereas malo is.
 
Is it done? Sure is, and not just by the middle sized herds either...no, but the big boys. I know this for a FACT. Not all, no but it HAS been done.

I can vaguely see smaller breeders being unethical, but the big boys? That's just sad. The big breeders are all pelters, yes? So, they would have an easier time than the rest of us putting down a chin that should not breed. I would have thought (incorrectly) that they would actually be at a higher standard... like I feel like if I get a *insert-big-breeder* chin that hopefully it would be good quality, good health, simply because they've seen so many chins that they could recognize problems quicker, but it's sad that that's not always the case.
 
I would have thought (incorrectly) that they would actually be at a higher standard... like I feel like if I get a *insert-big-breeder* chin that hopefully it would be good quality, good health, simply because they've seen so many chins that they could recognize problems quicker, but it's sad that that's not always the case.

That's how I USED to feel too. Big name equals trustworthy. Not so. After years in the business I've been around the block a few times. I've purchased animals (sight unseen) from "big name" breeders only to have them delivered with weepy eyes...or eyes that started to weep within days of arrival home...or animals that were well into breeding age when purchased that furchewed to a mohawk (those encountering extreme chewers know what I'm talkin' about) within days of littering. I'm NOT "big breeder bashing" here. It's any size herd. You need to KNOW the people you buy from. Dig deep. Ethics seem to go out the window when money gets in the way.

As far as the pelting herds, animals the get pelted are often pelted their first prime if they're being raised solely for pelting. I'm no expert on malo, but I have encountered it enought o know it doesn't always express by the first prime.

I've seen all sized breeders "overlook" a stress chewer because "it only chewed in extreme stress situations". So what?!? It chewed.

Breeding and passing on animals with malo and/or chewing is NOT new. It goes on in every sized herd from the well established to the byb. KNOW the people you buy your breeding stock from and do NOT count on a show record or internet reputation to be your bible.
 
If the breeder doesn't care it's a rough call. I just put them down but for those that do this for a living wiping out an entire line of animals can get expensive.

I think this is a big grey area. Chins that may not have had health issues with the original breeder in his/her location may have health issues in your environment. I put malo chins down but there are so many reasons that cause a chin to malocclude. I've bought my fair share from big breeders and had them show up chewing or with other health issues. Biggest way to avoid that is go to their ranch and check out the parents and relatives. Look at their husbandry, many don't dust their breeders so when they come into a barn that does dust they may get weepy, irritated eyes.

Here's a true scenario (not mine, thankfully!); what if you bought a line of chins that had a sensitivity to wheat in high amounts. The original breeder didn't notice or noted it and switched feeds years ago and doesn't think it is a big deal. Say you buy that herd and your area uses wheat as a filler. Now you have a herd of chinchillas randomly crapping themselves to death, prolapsing and babies are showing signs of malo or malabsorption at a young age. Now what? Switch feeds, or pelt them all and wipe your hands clean of it? ... or sell them to another rancher?

I could probably list on one hand the number of breeders that I have met that I'd trust. Mostly smaller breeders. Sad world. :(
 
I can vaguely see smaller breeders being unethical, but the big boys? That's just sad. The big breeders are all pelters, yes? So, they would have an easier time than the rest of us putting down a chin that should not breed. I would have thought (incorrectly) that they would actually be at a higher standard... like I feel like if I get a *insert-big-breeder* chin that hopefully it would be good quality, good health, simply because they've seen so many chins that they could recognize problems quicker, but it's sad that that's not always the case.

I was the recipiant of a chin from a famous award winning ranch that was a freakin mess, severe malo, class 5 heart murmur that eventually killed him with heart failure, allergies to the point he needed to be on benedryl, over 8k spent to keep this chin alive, he came down with malo at 11 months old, diagnosed with the murmur 2 weeks after I got him and was PTS at 4. I made it public and got trashed publically and got support privately, many MANY people told me their stories of chins they also got with issues. It will always happen when there is money involved, collateral damage.
 
I could probably list on one hand the number of breeders that I have met that I'd trust. Mostly smaller breeders. Sad world.

I agree, I have been burned more by buying chins from breeders than getting rescues or even my petco chins, I can think of only a few I would actually trust to buy from.
 
I understand the idea that malo may not show up in chins that are pelted at first prime.... when I get in malo chins at the rescue, it's almost never that they're that young. I think the youngest malo chin we've gotten in was at least 1-2 years. Course, that doesn't mean that they didn't start young, but I can believe that many chins may not show signs that young.

The same argument goes to people selling babies just to make money. We hang onto some of our babies, and through doing that, growing them out, show them, have them for years -- I would see if one of our held back "babies" developed problems 5 years down the road. But for "breeders" who just sell every baby the second it hits 8 weeks to the pet people, the same thing is true -- they would never know if they're producing tons of malo chins, fur chewers, etc. Course, they may not care even if they knew

Vyxxin said:
I've seen all sized breeders "overlook" a stress chewer because "it only chewed in extreme stress situations". So what?!? It chewed.

That's horrible. I've gotten in surrendered chins that people have dropped off with pedigrees...mohawk chins, as you say, would be a good way to describe them. And from big breeders, so I believe it does happen. Whether they knew or not when they sold the chin, that's up for debate (and granted, these were pet people, not breeders, that the rancher sold to)... but if they knew... I, personally, could not look the other way. A year or so ago, one of my females started chewing at Nationals. She was fine in her show cage the day of when I groomed her that morning, she hit the show table and had clearly chewed. The comments on her weren't all bad, but of course she was disqualified for the chewing. I remember the judge saying "be careful if using this female" -- which to me, was like :huh: -- she chewed! Why would I use her? I don't care if the comments had been that she was perfect other than the chewing -- she went to a pet home.

I can personally understand that chins may exhibit different things in different places. I've gotten my share of furchewers at the rescue that have been practically bald coming in, but after a few months, look like a normal chin. I can't say I'm providing anything exceptional -- food, water, good cage, playtime when there's time -- but half the time, the surrenders come from homes that can't care for them any longer, often due to lack of time (or, that's the given reason anyway). So, theoretically, these chins are coming from homes that cared for them... where they chewed themselves to bits... then came here where they are cared for... and stopped chewing. So I do believe the opposite can happen. I mean, when I purchased the abovementioned female, from a large breeder, she wasn't chewing. So it's a very real possibility that she didn't chew before, her parents/grandparents didn't chew, I mean, I don't know that, but its possible. But she chewed at the show, and never stopped after that. So I can understand that. But knowingly selling a chin that is sick or has issues, I feel that's different from selling a chin that's showing no signs, where the breeder honestly has no idea that something's wrong, or will be in the future.
 
Malo can and does show up under a year old, it would be genetic malo in most cases. I understand that genetic stuff can show up out of the blue, its what the breeder/rancher does with the issue is what matters, and it should not involve selling the chin to anyone. PTS or keep IMO is the only option, loss happens in any business, deal with it.
 
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Malo can and does show up under a year old, it would be genetic malo in most cases.
I feel that if malo shows up before or at a year it is caused by sickness, poor nutrition, poor husbandry or being dropped or having the jaw dislocated as a kit. I've gotten several of these. If it was truly genetic the parents would not have lived long enough to reproduce. I don't know if I've ever seen a genetic malo case that I could definitely say was the cause of breeding. If that were the case at whatever age each member of the line would succumb to it.
 
At what age is malo considered genetic? Obviously if the chin is under a yr old, but if it shows up at 8 yrs old is it genetic or husbandry? Obviously the animal shouldn't be bred or sold to a pet home, but at 8 yrs old there are up to 4 or 5 generations passed that individual. That adds up to a lot of chins. What about other genetic issues? As a breeder I don't have my chins checked for heart murmurs, so I'm breeding chins with unknown health statis. What are all the issues considered genetic tha breeders should be held acountable in a perfect world?
 
I feel that if malo shows up before or at a year it is caused by sickness, poor nutrition, poor husbandry or being dropped or having the jaw dislocated as a kit. I've gotten several of these. If it was truly genetic the parents would not have lived long enough to reproduce. I don't know if I've ever seen a genetic malo case that I could definitely say was the cause of breeding. If that were the case at whatever age each member of the line would succumb to it.

You stated in 2010 you have only had one malo chin ever and it was from a ranch, so what experience do you have with malo chins to make this claim? I know what genetic malo looks like, I have the DOB and skull and I also have skulls where its obvious its injury and it does not look like genetic malo which covers the entire dentition.



I've only had one case of malocclusion in my herd and it was from a chin I shipped in from a "big" breeder back east
 
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