How do breeding-chins live?

[monarch]

I came across this cute video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XCBxqBp2Iw


And noticed the first couple comments in the page:


thanatosstorm
That is impressive. I hope that you don't take this the wrong way, but do you give him a lot of floor time? I just think that that cage looks pretty small from this angle, or maybe I'm just seeing things. God bless.


mishirish
I'm a breeder and all my chins are kept in breeding cages. They do not get play time. This particular chin was sold to a very loving pet home and now gets plenty of play time, and I'm told he still does the flips!



And I wondered about the breeder's comment. Don't get play time? It occurred to me that I've seen the breeders on this site mention they have over 200 chins, which at first only made me marvel at the amount of work there must be to keep the business flowing. But then I realized, how do you provide a happy lifestyle to these chins if you have to care for hundreds of them? You can't possibly have time to give them all attention, which is understandable, but do they really not even have the opportunity to run around and explore?

I know with my chin, and admittedly I am a newbie chin owner, I feel stressed at the thought of leaving him in the cage for so many hours in the day. I try to let him out for at -least- an hour in the evening so he can get exercise, and also mental stimulation. You ever see a caged dog that was never let out? They look so distraught! I cant imagine leaving my chin in a 'breeding cage' such as this video portrays, much less not letting him out to play.

So my question is, what is the life of a breeding chin?

And please don't see this post as an attack on your work or lifestyles. I am merely curious as to the whole business of breeding chins. No don't worry, I would never DREAM of starting this as a hobby - I have absolutely no interest in it and love my chin simply as a pet - I just would like to know what your jobs are like and what it is that you go through as a breeder, and what the chins go through as the animals being bred.

 

[threewingedfury]

Chins do not require large amounts of space in their cage, nor do they require time outside of the cage. It is not a necessity. As a pet owner, it is always great to spoil your chin and to give them a large home and to play with them when you have time. Breeding chins live in variety of cages depending on the person breeding them. I use breeding runs, which are smaller than the cage that you posted in the video. I also have larger cages for weaning larger amounts of babies. I have outside time with my babies, but not my breeders. I do not want to take a chance in harming an unborn kit if a female is pregnant. I leave them be, give them toys and they're happy.

The breeder that posted the video is Mish, and she's a very responsible breeder on the forum here. There is nothing wrong with the cage she is using. My cages are even smaller. Some breeders use runs, some don't. Some use larger colony cages. It really just depends on personal preference. Personally, this is what works best for me.

Here is a preview of my barn and the cages that my chins are raised in:

http://threewingedfury.webs.com/thechinchillabarn.htm

 

[starleomach]

Mish takes wonderful care of her chinchillas. I have 100 chinchillas and they get attention and love..often Ranchers who keep their chinchillas in small cages end up with healthier happy chinchillas than pet owners as they do not give unhealthy treats unlike many many pet owners. Most of my chinchillas are kept in big colony cages in groups and are happy. I feel that with a reputable breeder breeding chinchillas are just as happy as pet chinchillas

 

[monarch]

Please don't think that I thought there is anything wrong with that cage. I just wondered how it affects chins, if they are affected at all. I sometimes read comments on other media that marvel at an owner's small cage, and how chinchillas may get lethargic as a result:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6u1lYS0rCA&feature=related

They seem to be such high energy animals, I assumed they would need an active lifestyle.

Here is a preview of my barn and the cages that my chins are raised in:

http://threewingedfury.webs.com/thechinchillabarn.htm

I love the videos you have on your site, especially the babies eating hay!

How long do the breeding chins live in the cages?

The chins don't develop fur-biting as a result of being in an enclosed space? I thought I had learned that fur-chewing was a sign of boredom.

 

[threewingedfury]

I love the videos you have on your site, especially the babies eating hay!

How long do the breeding chins live in the cages?

That, again, depends on the breeder. I personally feel that I will retire my chins from breeding when they show signs of slowing down in producing. I do give my nursing females larger cages so they're less crowded with the babies and will keep them in a larger cage until I'm ready to put them back in breeding. They can live in these cages their entire life, it's not going to hurt them.

In the video you posted of the sitting chin - that chin is not lethargic, nor is it in a small cage. It's not the best cage in the world as far as the design for a chinchilla, but it's not too small for any chin.

 

[jamanalo]

Breeding with run is a safer way to breed. The multi level cages are asking for accidents. chinchillas are content with being in the smaller cages, some not as much as others. Chinchillas dont need to be let out daily. I feel like it's a misconception. Its more that a chinchilla is very social. It needs plenty of attention, not necessarily meaning you need to let them run out once a day.

 

[monarch]

Do the chins get dust baths? Do they have hidey houses to escape in? I read so much about how sensitive chins are and all these immensely importing things to remember to do for them and to have for them, I thought I was being a terrible mom for not having a hidey house for Fidget yet, or for not having a wheel for him to run on. My research on chinchillas led me to think I was doing everything wrong! But breeding chins simply stay in cages and are content as long as they have a herd nearby?

 

[Megan]

My chins live in runs, and they do not get play time. Nor do they get daily pets/scratches. My females raise their young in the runs as well. Kits are also placed into the same size cages in pairs until they hit a few months old, where they are seperated and "grown out" for show.

I personally do not get rid of my females when they slow down and don't produce. They are normally left uncollared and can go from cage to cage in their run with the other chins provided they get along, and live out their lives like that.

My animals are extremely healthy, and happy.

Chins do not need all the stuff pet owners give them. Infact, I personally feel the more stuff in a cage can lead to more problems (falling from a high ledge, chewing something they shouldn't). Play time can lead to being stepped on, funiture dropped on them, other animals attacking and killing them, or them eating wires etc. Health related issues with the many treats pet owners tend to give their animals..

 

[jamanalo]

Hidey homes are also pet misconceptions. If your animal is running to hide from you; you are frightening them. If you want them to become more social, I dont think that putting a home for them to hide is is very wise, since they will run from every moment you can bond with them.
As for dust baths, I have tip in dusters, so my dusters are attached to each cage. Its much easier when they bath because I just tip in a duster, they do their business, and then I tip it out.
Chinchillas are complicated creatures. They are very hardy animals, but at the same time fragile. Other than having to take a dustbath every week, they are very low maintenance animals compared to the usual exotic pet. I've owned hedge hogs and sugar gliders before. They require a lot more patience and dedication in that you need to cut up food, clean tediously etc. Tiffany owns gliders; I can imagine that the upkeeping surpasses that of what chinchillas need.

 

[RDZCRanch]

Hidey homes are also pet misconceptions. If your animal is running to hide from you; you are frightening them. If you want them to become more social, I dont think that putting a home for them to hide is is very wise, since they will run from every moment you can bond with them.

I disagree with this for most cases. Chinchillas in the wild live in burrows. They spend the majority of their lives hiding in a small enclosed area. They thrive when given an area that mimics this. The typical pet person's cage is all wire, large and very very open and often in a high traffic area. If you have a noisy household or high activity at any point of the day, you're chinchilla could be uncomfortable without a hidey house. I say this because I have seen it and so have many breeders I've talked to...a chin one of us raised goes to live in a big cage with no hidey house and starts chewing themselves when there is no history of chewing in the lines. In breeding runs, this "burrow" replacement is not necessary because the runs are small and enclosed so they already act as a "burrow" of sorts.

Runs and small cages are not cruel(I know you didn't say this, but I've seen it before ) or wrong for a chinchilla. The smaller cages save a lot of space for me and no matter what size cage my chins are in...if they want exercise, by golly they'll get their exercise! They bounce and dig and make all sorts of chaos in those small cages. Mine also get small wood chews every now and then which provides hours of "chew and toss" amusement for them. They also get stimulation every week when I clean their cages and they get to play in new, clean shavings.

As far as interaction...chinchillas are very social creatures and they do thrive on interaction. I say good morning and good night to each of my chinchillas and often I am in there throughout the day bothering them and talking to them. They may not get individual run time, treats, or handled every day...but there are other types of interaction and my chins get plenty of that. They are handled enough that I've not gotten a complaint from anyone who has gotten a chin from me. They are all good with handling and being bothered in general...they are just used to human presence.

I have not had chins chew from being in smaller cages, but I've had several stress in colony cages and open wire cages and chew themselves. Chewing is part genetic and part outward stressing factors. If you put a chin in a cage so small that they absolutely could not do more than eat, drink, poo, pee and turn around...I am sure they would start chewing.

 

[tunes]

Hidey homes are also pet misconceptions. If your animal is running to hide from you; you are frightening them. If you want them to become more social, I dont think that putting a home for them to hide is is very wise, since they will run from every moment you can bond with them.

Ehhhh - bull. If Sandi, Nikki, or Stack read this thread, I'm pretty sure they'll tell you this is a crock, since they all have multiple animals of mine, and every single cage here, breeder or not, has a hidey house. My animals are almost all outgoing and very personable. They enjoy interaction with their humans, as much as any other chin does, and in a lot of cases more than most.

I'm a breeder and I use smallish cages. I don't use the 4 hole runs, I hate them, but I have 2 and 3 hole holding cages (which I also hate, BTW, because they are dark and gloomy). I also have quite a few open airy wire cages that are taller and deeper than the regular wood runs. I like their space and their openess, I just hate the manufacturing. If I had nothing but pet chins, I would not use small cages. I use the cages I do for the safety of the kits. Large cages, lots of ledges, lots of levels is a death sentence for newborn kits. Either mom goes away from them and won't nurse, they get cold, they get jumped on, or they try and scramble up to mom and fall. Large multi-level cages and pregnant moms and kits do not mix.

I have 300'ish chins. No, my chins do not get the 1 on 1 time that a pet owner has. Anybody with tons of chins that tells you their chins get 1 on 1 time every single day are either delusional or cannot do any other thing but stare into chin cages all day long. I go in the barn in the morning and I check every cage, refill bottles if needed, and give a snack if they are up and hungry. I go in at night and I check every cage, feed, and water. I visit with them as I feed, but I don't open every cage door and pet every single chin, and visit with each individual animal in every single cage. I would never be able to clean my house or do anything else if I did that.

Do I think breeding animals have the ideal life? No, I do not. I have said before, and will say again, I would rather my chins go to a loving forever pet home than to a breeder's home every time. I got jumped on for that in the past, but I don't care. I feel guilty every time I walk in that barn and think about all you folks with your monstrous FN142s and your unlimited supply of wood for your 2 or 10 chins. I wish I could have a hammock in every cage with a tube and a wheel, and all the fun stuff for my chins that you have; however, it isn't even remotely realistic to attempt it because of the safety issues and also because of the tremendous cost involved. Since I chose to breed my chins, that's not a life I can give them, because I have to think of their safety first. Do I think my chins are abused? No, they aren't abused. But do I wish they could have better? Oh yeah, you betcha.

 

[Michelle43]

Interesting thread, I also have wondered about this stuff.

 

[AZChins]

Chins are animals and can be treated as such. It isn't abuse to have the basics and keep things clean and hygienic. My cages are smaller but the chins eat everyday and I spend a lot of time with them. It would be impossible to get everyone out everyday, but I do my best with them. I don't like large cages, wheels or a lot of extras because they can lead to accidents. The chins routinely live to 15 years of age or older and are calm and friendly so I must be doing something right. I spend at least 10 hours a day playing with chins and handling them...but with so many I couldn't give them all an hour out of the cage and hold them all. I try, believe me, I try...but, honestly, the chins don't need nearly as much as what a lot of people believe they need.

10 to 15 years ago a large cage and cage accessories were a lot different than they are now. If new people went back to when I started with chins, they would find things to be different but the chins were healthy and cared for very well even back then cared for by the breeders and ranchers. Everything is just more fancy now and I am not sure that the chins really do need that much fanciness. There sure weren't as many backyard breeders and the chin community was so much smaller.

 

[monarch]

Fanciness is a little of an overstatement. I'm not necessarily advocating an overload of unnecessary knick knacks, but I do wonder about the psyche of the animals. True, they are just that - animals - but I assume they can be influenced by stress and lack of stimulation just like any caged animal would. The main point that we agree on is that they are animals, however the difference in conclusion is that I think they are more perceptive than may be believed. They are high energy, wild animals that are evolved to run in large open spaced in large herds. How can they live their lives in a small enclosed space?

 

[arf2184]

Chinchillas can live long, healthy lives in small, clean cages with just the basics (food, water, hay, occasional dust bath). Should they? That's a matter of opinion.

Personally, I don't think I could keep an animal in a cage without a soft place to nap and nothing for entertainment. All my chins get hide houses, at least one shelf, a hammock, glass jars for dusting, and hanging chew toys strung with a variety of wood types for their chewing pleasure. All my chins live in cages that are 30"x24"x20"...more then double the size of some breeding runs. During cage cleaning once a week, my chins usually get out of cage time to explore and play if they wish (some prefer to stay in their cage). I keep my numbers small so that I can offer these things. Once or twice a week I'll give everyone a healthy treat. I check on chinchillas twice a day (at least). I give a few chin scratches and say hello to some of the chinchillas each night, but I don't reach in to every cage everyday and visit each animal. I have a few (the 'special' pet only chins) that prefer it that way.

Is all of this necessary? Well, the chins enjoy these things and they make me feel good, but they could easily live without all the 'extras'. So it comes back to 'should they?' which again is a matter of opinion.

Chinchillas are not human and don't think like us, but I can't help but anthropomorphize. If I were spend most of my life in one room, I'd at least want some sort of entertainment and I'd want to go 'outside' to see new/different things every so often. So that's what I offer to my chinchillas...a little entertainment and a little out of cage time. Whether its truly for their benefit or for my own, I'm not quite sure, but we all seem pretty happy.

 

[VolunteerChin22]

They are high energy, wild animals that are evolved to run in large open spaced in large herds. How can they live their lives in a small enclosed space?

Chinchillas today are by no means "wild" they have been greatly domesticated through careful breeding by knowlegable ranchers who have been using run type cages for DECADES. I mean no one would be expecting to see Shih Tzus or Poodles running wild right?

I'm sure you and other pet people prefer to house your chins differently that's fine, (I'm with Peggy on wishing I could put everyone in 142's with fleece galore) but as AZ said, thousands of chins are living in breeding cages to ripe old ages with no issues and safe deliveries of kits, so clearly they manage just fine.

I also have some run cages and some larger cages I use to rotate females out of the run cages with kits or waiting to go back into breeding, and wean groups of kits.

 

[Michelle43]

If you don't mind monarch, I would like to slip in a question on your thread?

Why do some breeders have over 30 chins? Sure they are small animals but I don't know why so many are needed? Just curious...

 

[aznmexaggie]

Why do some breeders have over 30 chins? Sure they are small animals but I don't know why so many are needed? Just curious...

Because you can't make many improvements very quickly if you are only working with a couple animals. Say you just have a pair who produces two litters one year, two kits in each litter. Out of all those four kits, only one is better quality than the parents. The other three you will sell and not use for breeding. Next year you will have that original pair and their "quality" kit to breed... but who will you breed it with - the father? You need to have a larger number of animals to pick and choose your mates, who to show, who to sell, etc. and also so you're not breeding back to the parents or closely-related chins again and again. You will quickly have many very closely-related animals if only working with a small number... not to say responsible line-breeding isn't practiced by some but that has a specific purpose: to "lock in" a desirable trait.

Also, for those who show, a full string is 40 chinchillas. The chinchillas taken to show are the very best of the offspring you have produced. At the CA shows, most of the smaller hobby breeders show around 5-15 chins. The ranchers are generally the only ones with full strings.

 

[ErinsChins]

Before I say how I feel on this issue, let me say that I do have a ton of respect for ranchers and larger breeders and do not want to offend anyone.
However, for my comfort, my chins are kept in large cages, at least 3 ft x 2ft x 2ft, with a hidey house, chew toys, and two or more ledges. They do come out at least every other day, usually daily. Yes, I do have a life, but I do some of the things that I need to do with the chins while they are out. It also helps that I can do a group of 10 males at once and 10 females at once etc. Can larger breeders do this? No probably not, but I can, so why not? I love each and every one of my chins, they are all pets to me. If/when the day comes where either they don't all have names or I can't hold them daily, I think I will have to take a step back and ask myself what I really want. Again, not to offend anyone, this is just how I feel about myself.

 

[Michelle43]

Because you can't make many improvements very quickly if you are only working with a couple animals. Say you just have a pair who produces two litters one year, two kits in each litter. Out of all those four kits, only one is better quality than the parents. The other three you will sell and not use for breeding. Next year you will have that original pair and their "quality" kit to breed... but who will you breed it with - the father? You need to have a larger number of animals to pick and choose your mates, who to show, who to sell, etc. and also so you're not breeding back to the parents or closely-related chins again and again. You will quickly have many very closely-related animals if only working with a small number... not to say responsible line-breeding isn't practiced by some but that has a specific purpose: to "lock in" a desirable trait.

Also, for those who show, a full string is 40 chinchillas. The chinchillas taken to show are the very best of the offspring you have produced. At the CA shows, most of the smaller hobby breeders show around 5-15 chins. The ranchers are generally the only ones with full strings.

Ah ok, thanks for explaining that