Do you think there is a place for hand feeding?

[Spoof]

This came up in a recent thread and I thought it would be a great debate topic. )

Do you feel it is appropriate to hand feed kits?

If you do, do you feel it affects genetics to allow continued poor production of milk from generation to generation?

For those that have chosen to supplement more often than not, have you had to continue to do it for the life of your herd? Do you notice a trend in certain lines?

For those that don't supplement, have you had a noticeable increased death rate from not intervening?

For those that do but only do it once or twice a day from birth, have you noticed any loss of life from less feedings?

Would you buy from a line that you knew did not produce enough milk and had to be supplemented?

 

[ticklechin]

I have a question, do kits who have always been handfed have issues since they are not getting the "stuff" in mothers milk like antibodies and the such?

 

[Spoof]

Good one Dawn!

I should have asked that; Do you notice a difference in the health or lifespan of kits that have been hand fed from birth with no access to mother's milk?

 

[Pookinaround]

Obviously I would prefer to buy a chin that was naturally raised with mom. Would I buy a chin that was supplemented...? Yes if it was a fantastic animal and from great lines. I am often willing to take a chance and see how things go.

I am a new breeder so obviously I haven't had much experience with kits yet but I will say that I believe in nature and I have thought about this and I don't plan on doing a lot of handfeeding. Not saying I never will as it will depend on the circumstance. I think sometimes nature tries to tell us things though...

 

[RDZCRanch]

Milk production is passed down from the father, not the mother. So hand feeding a kit from a mother with poor milk production does not mean her daughter will have the same problems.

 

[Spoof]

Milk production is passed down from the father, not the mother. So hand feeding a kit from a mother with poor milk production does not mean her daughter will have the same problems.

But in the truest genetic sense, wouldn't it? If the dam has problems producing, then she likely inherited it from her father, making it a compound issue if you breed in a male line that has questionable milk production histories? Then would you chance producing kits that would non/mediocre producers?

That is why I was curious if people who supplemented a lot found that over the years they have had to continue to do it or experience a higher kit mortality rate?

 

[AZChins]

I don't do a lot of handfeeding. Most of my chins are from ranches and they don't seem to have milk production problems, I am assuming that most of the problems with that have probably been worked out already.

If there is a female that is having problems producing milk, it should be taken out of breeding. Any bloodlines with poor milk production probably shouldn't be used for breeding anymore either. Handfeeding can be hit or miss, so the babies may come through it alright or die fairly quickly. It seems like the only time I have to handfeed is with weakened kits that are either doing poorly at birth or are in a litter of three or more.

The kits that are handfed and not given mothers milk do tend to have a reduced lifespan. The same goes for kits that are weaned too early. Milk from the mothers helps to not only give them energy but also give them immunity that will aid in a healthy immune system until they are older and can fight off infection and disease. Kits that miss out on colostrum definitely have a higher chance of dying early. But, the kits that are weaned too early can die after just a few years...they tend to have a higher chance of neurological problems and don't seem to grow as large as they should. I expect it would probably be the same for handfed kits that are not getting real chinchilla milk.

 

[Vyxxin]

Do you feel it is appropriate to hand feed kits? We are responsible for producing those animals and therefore equally responsible for making sure they survive to the best of OUR ability...if that includes handfeeding then yes

If you do, do you feel it affects genetics to allow continued poor production of milk from generation to generation? absolutely it affects genetics from generation to generation, to some degree. If a female has a rare litter of triplets or more (which is above average) we should first question why she's producing more than normal kits...and if it is an ongoing issue of high production low milk then those lines, for the sake of future generations should not be kept in production. As with other species, this is one of those genetic issues that while humans can assure immediate survival...we're breeding for their continued dependance on humans which is not natural

For those that have chosen to supplement more often than not, have you had to continue to do it for the life of your herd? Do you notice a trend in certain lines? I have handfed much more often than supplemented. When I chose to step in and handfeed it is to save the kits life...not to ensure survival for future breeding. I have culled poor milkers in the past as well as their offspring. It's not doing a service to your herd or your buyers to continue breeding animals that cannot take care of their own offspring. This happens in humans. Women that cannot birth their own children or breastfeed their own children. This is because other humans (doctors and formula producers) have intervened to a point where c-sections and bottle feeding is an easy alternative. We've become dependant on other humans for the continued welfare of our offspring. The same will happen in chinchillas.

For those that don't supplement, have you had a noticeable increased death rate from not intervening? Before I started ensuring kit survival by handfeeding those that I felt would die, I did have a higher mortality rate. Sometimes I waited too long to step in...those kits died.


Would you buy from a line that you knew did not produce enough milk and had to be supplemented? I would want a long term record for the parents of a handfed kit. Did the mother need other kits handfed? Did the father produce many kits that needed handfed or very large litters consistantly? If the answer to either of those was yes, I wouldn't knowingly purchase those animals. Once is one thing. It happens. Sometimes by fluke chance a mother produces more kits than she can handle. Sometimes environment can affect milk production and that litter she just couldn't milk. But if it's an ongoing problem, repeatedly, it shouldn't be kept in production.


That all said, we are supposed to be breeding for overall health of our animals. Whether it be chinchillas, dogs...cats. If you choose to breed you have an obligation to breed for quality and that means health. Continued kit loss due to excessive sized litters or low milk production is NOT, IMO, health. I rarely have to handfeed. My mothers are good mothers. Sometimes things happen making it necessary though. I will say, a majority of the time I've had to handfeed was due to kit fighting. My litters of trips usually get enough milk. I rarely have litters above two kits. I DO have kits that fight in their first day with such intensity that their littermate is made unable to nurse effectively. Not all handfeeding is a result of poor milking or excessive litter size.

Also noteworthy is environmental factors. While genetic factors I'm sure play a HUGE rule...take into account things beyond genetics. For instance, poor diet. Maybe you were feeding your chinchilla a high quality diet. BUT, for one reason or another a batch of her food was contaminated and she became inwardly ill from it. Not terribly outwardly noticeable, but it affected milk production. OR, the batch was mixed improperly (it DOES happen) and some of the bags were excessively high in protein. Excessive amounts of protein can affect kit development. The point being, give a girl a chance. If it happens once it could be a fluke...environmental factors...a first litter. A LOT has to be taken into consideration. If it happens more than once, not worth the risk. Remove her from breeding and do not breed her offspring.

In a herd concerned about ensuring kit survivability, not being able to feed their own kits is as severe a disease as malo.

 

[Sycamore Chins]

The kits that are handfed and not given mothers milk do tend to have a reduced lifespan. The same goes for kits that are weaned too early. Milk from the mothers helps to not only give them energy but also give them immunity that will aid in a healthy immune system until they are older and can fight off infection and disease. Kits that miss out on colostrum definitely have a higher chance of dying early. But, the kits that are weaned too early can die after just a few years...they tend to have a higher chance of neurological problems and don't seem to grow as large as they should. I expect it would probably be the same for handfed kits that are not getting real chinchilla milk.

I disagree with most of this. Maternal antibodies from colostrum are there to help the young through the beginning stages of life when their immune systems are sub-par. The antibodies DO NOT stay with them their entire lives and do not help them after the "window of susceptibility" (this is why we vaccinate puppies and kittens). So if you can get the kit through it's "window of susceptibility", their individual immune systems mature and there is no reason it shouldn't live a full, healthy life on just the basis of missing out on colostrum.


In our herd we give our females a second chance. If it was a litter of 3-5 then we're lenient. I would have said we would give them a third chance if it was greater than 3 kits, but after one girl had 5 kits a couple years ago and had enough milk for all of them, we just had to rotate so they didn't kill each other, I kind of feel like the other females shouldn't have an excuse for feeding only 3.

I've never asked someone I'm buying a chin from about the mothers ability to produce milk, whether it needed supplementation, etc. Never thought about it, really. It does make sense, but so far I've just judged animals based on the individual. I feel like the spectrum of problems we've had with low production of milk have been between "bat-**** crazy/stressed out and first time mom that does better the second time" - neither one I've really attributed to being a genetic issue.

 

[ticklechin]

So where do hand reared kits get the colostrum?

 

[Sycamore Chins]

They don't... I think that's the point of wondering if and when the lack of colostrum affects them. If you can get them through the early stages without them succumbing to disease, then their adult life shouldn't be affected.

 

[ticklechin]

Could you add powdered goat colostrum to the goats milk?

 

[Sycamore Chins]

I've looked into it and talked to a couple nutritionists. It probably wouldn't hurt. But the maternal antibodies passed down from mom to baby in the colostrum are specific to the organisms that the mom has encountered in her lifetime. So likely, colostrum from a goat on who knows what farm will not be helpful for a chinchilla in a building/house. They probably will not encounter the same organisms in their environments.

 

[Dreamlite]

I was always told that colostrum from a goat or even a sheep can be used, but its only useful if you can find it from a local supplier. Most powdered colostrum suplements aren't local enough to be worth useing.

 

[tunes]

Have any of you seen pictures of Dixie, my white/violet? (Those who are on FB with me have, I've got several pictures of her on there.) She's 1000 gm, she's 6 years old, she produces beautiful offspring who don't need hand fed, and she was completely, 100% hand fed. So was her brother Stimpy, who is here and producing just fine, and I have not had to hand feed a single offspring.

I have done a lot of hand feeding, mainly because of larger litters, once or twice because of no milk or I lost mom. Usually the lack of milk is in first time moms.

Do you think it's appropriate to hand feed kits? Yes. The alternative is what? Let them all die because I'm too lazy or have weird ideas about how it might affect them later? To me this isn't even a topic of debate. They need to eat, you feed them. If you can't foster them, you hand feed. Where is the debate there?

 

[AZChins]

Alicyn...I know the antibodies don't stay with them their entire lives. However, the brown fat that the chins put on their bodies does stay with them and there may be problems with brain development if they are weaned too early. The immunity issue is going to affect the chins mostly in the short term, but there are other problems that a chin can have if the animal does not get the proper nutrition that only nursing from the mother can provide.

 

[AZChins]

Peggy, I agree. Handfeeding kits is often very necessary. Somtimes breeders just have to do something...letting the babies just die is not an option.

 

[greychins]

Do you feel it is appropriate to hand feed kits?

Yes, I do. If it was my action that caused the kits, then I definitely feel it's my responsibility to try to keep them alive. If that means handfeeding, then so be it. But I don't handfeed unless it's clear that it's necessary.

If you do, do you feel it affects genetics to allow continued poor production of milk from generation to generation?

In the one instance where we had a female that produced little-to-no-milk for two litters, we ended up selling the kits as pets, and once we're sure that the mom is not pregnant again, she will be sold as pet-only as well. In my opinion, I would not breed chins that are coming from lines that don't produce milk. Even if the kits turned out spectacularly, I wouldn't want to take the chance that they may not produce milk well either.

For those that have chosen to supplement more often than not, have you had to continue to do it for the life of your herd? Do you notice a trend in certain lines?

Our one pair produced good quality kits. We have kept several of those kits, but not all of them have had poor milk production -- only the one. So even though it's genetic, it's apparently not passed down every time, because the other females from that line have no problem with milk production.

For those that don't supplement, have you had a noticeable increased death rate from not intervening?

There have been times when I decided to "give it a few days" and see if mom would get in milk. As a result of not stepping in soon enough, I have had kits die -- kits that I believe would have had the possibility of living, had I stepped in and handfed earlier. So I would suppose that if someone does not handfeed at all, then my guess would be that most of those kits would pass.

Would you buy from a line that you knew did not produce enough milk and had to be supplemented?

No, I would not. I feel like if the mother can't care for her kits adequately, by not having the milk needed, then that's not a trait I would want to pass on. I have no problem with supplementing if something happens, like a problem with birth, mom passes, too many babies, etc... but I would never want to get some chins knowing that I would have to supplement.

 

[Sue]

We step in when we see kits not gaining, I don't wait more than a day and if they're not gaining or are losing then I supplement. And ya know what? Those kits turn out to be sooooo sweet and trusting. And great breeders too, strong and healthy all the way around. A calm animal does better as a pet and as a breeder than a nervous or timid one. Our hand raised babies that we keep trust us implicitly and never question when we check on their offspring. And I know at once when they see us in the morning if something is wrong, they'll call us. On the other hand, I'm getting eaten alive by a female that I bought this spring and has her first litter of three. Just checking their weights each day costs me some blood.

 

[Spoof]

Interesting answers everyone! I'll answer them too.

Do you feel it is appropriate to hand feed kits?
In all the years I've been doing this I've never had to hand feed a kit from birth. Always had a foster mom. I've found many times if you stick a kit in with a receptive female she will start producing milk within the week. I feed the kit twice per day until she starts.

If you do, do you feel it affects genetics to allow continued poor production of milk from generation to generation?
Definitely. There are production herds out there that breed for high litter numbers and high survivability. Therefore the opposite can also be achieved by poor or unknowing management.

For those that have chosen to supplement more often than not, have you had to continue to do it for the life of your herd? Do you notice a trend in certain lines? When I started I had a female that I had to "help" every one of her litters for the first few weeks. Thought it was normal at the time. 8 generations later I got another that traced back to her. ~sigh. Sent that one to a pet home, gorgeous animal too.

For those that don't supplement, have you had a noticeable increased death rate from not intervening? No. My kit death ratio hasn't changed since I started breeding.

For those that do but only do it once or twice a day from birth, have you noticed any loss of life from less feedings? No. I do notice a greatly reduced chance of aspiration (milk in the lungs) if they are hungry and trying to suck the dropper out of your hands. I haven't aspirated one in over 8 years, since I went to twice a day feedings. Maybe I just got better at it.... but there are years I haven't needed to hand feed anything.

Would you buy from a line that you knew did not produce enough milk and had to be supplemented? No. I also don't do lines that are known to only produce single kits.

I do not intervene unless the kits are losing more than 1g per day. It takes 3-4 per milk to hold steady and for each additional 1g of weight gain. If mom produces no milk babies will lose 2-3g per day. Therefore, if the kit is holding steady or only losing 1g mom is producing milk. I've had them hold steady for 4-5 days then take off. Never lost one nor had a difference in adult size between siblings. If they lose two days in a row I step in. These methods may not work for other herds as each person collects and breeds for chins to their own preferences. After 10, 30, or 50 generations you have developed your own line of chins. )

On the other hand, I'm getting eaten alive by a female that I bought this spring and has her first litter of three. Just checking their weights each day costs me some blood.

This is another trait I believe is genetic. I breed for a calm, friendly animal. My goal is to have such a sweet temperament that I could handle an adult that I had minimal interaction with and they will be as friendly as if they were hand fed. I went through rancher's barns and picked animals I knew had only been handled a couple of times during their life and were so sweet and calm as adults they crawled right out into your arms. These guys do tend to produce more milk, larger litters and babies that gain faster. I noticed a trend over the years that if I brought in a high stress animal(s) it would wind up the whole barn and there was a tension in there. Get rid of them and it's like a sigh of relief from everyone. Odd, but interesting.