chin with lost pedigree

[Pookinaround]

Nothing in life is an absolute and for the most part the people on here saying they will breed an unpedigreed chin will only do so in certain circumstances and for the most part they DO in fact breed pedigreed chins. We are talking about extreme exceptions and to compare it to breeding rescue chins are two entirely different ends of the spectrum. The two I mentioned in my previous post are THE ONLY two I have without pedigrees and they are also the only two I have come across since that I would even consider, nevertheless I am happy to have them.

I think those who would breed "just anything" would do so regardless of anything that we mention in this thread.

 

[halfstache]

Not to hijack the thread or anything, but reading this has got me wondering. If pedigrees have to start somewhere, how many generations do you need to have logged before it is really, truly considered a pedigree? I'm pretty sure that technically date of birth, ranch, and parents make for a pedigree, but only having 2 generations doesn't feel like that'd be enough lineage to call an animal pedigreed...So where is the line on that?

 

[Dreamlite]

The female I want to keep and use is from chincherub lines. Anyone who knows her knows she breeds ebony and violets and a few other colors. She had tol me there were several violet females born for the 3/10 birthday the owner remembered. The person I got her from remembers way too many details for it to be anyother breeder. She gave directions to her door, the breeders name, rannch name and even mentioned the fact that she has soooo many and refused to use runs, which is rare in a breeder that size. I was just going to assume there is ebony in the lines anyway and cross to a eb vc so that wouldn't be a issue.

Vixen how are you able to track down all these issues with only a pedigree? All of the peds I've gotten only list show placings, animal numbers and colors. They don't list any other information. Its much easier to breed out problems in dogs due to the universal registration. If I have 25 puppies and they are registered and the father deveoples a problem I can call up the reg place an get all the contactinfo to let the owners know. I have never met a chinchilla breeder that will go to any length to inform other owners of a possible genetic issue in a particular line. Until people are willing to post animal xyz had malo at 4 yrs old and I sold. X amount of kits... be aware how can the buyer of the 1st litter ever know?

 

[ticklechin]

I see no difference between breeding without a pedigree and breeding rescues, CL chins or petstore chins which from the tone of this thread appears to be implied is ok, its hypocritical for people to pounce of BYBS about breeding without pedigrees when they are the same people doing it.

 

[Vyxxin]

A universal registry has nothing to do with it. You think dog breeders with genetic ailments such as hip displaysia or early onset cataracts or luxating petellar call the registry to notify them? It's the equivalent of a breeder on here posting chin ABCD X29 just came down with malo. He has 30 kits produced, if you or anyone you know has one of his kits please be warned. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

People want to upkeep their reputations, which is sad because anyone with large numbers or long years has had SOMETHING pop up in their herds. NO, how dog breeders KNOW and ELIMINATE genetic malady is the same way I did when I realized it. Study the pedigrees, study the pedigrees, study the pedigrees. Sure, it's not going to fix every time, but in my case it did.

And something to keep in mind, I can tell you how to get to any breeders house I've been to...get to their chin room within their house...tell you what their set up looked like, what they fed in some cases etc...Doesn't mean the chin I'm handing you is from them

 

[jags]

This topic is just so much fun. If you think preaching you must have a pedigree to bred will stop people from breeding crap animals guess again. As already mentioned people are going to do as the well please no matter what. How many people have been jumped all over on this site about their breeding of such and such animals only to just leave the site and continue to do just as they intended to do to begin with. I would rather try to educate people as to what quality is and how to bred for it rather than preach you have to have a piece of paper with numbers on it that most people have no idea whats behind the lines. If you preach do not bred with out pedigree than can any crap animal be bred because it has a pedigree? For anyone who thinks they will make a ton of money breeding crap animals because of a low start up fee in buying animals, I wish to inform them that anything done this way will result in a failure. As far as the thought that all these animals that will end up in rescues and they will soon be over flowing, why take in just any animal and make it a rescue. Yes they are live animals and some people want to help any and all of them, but maybe some need to be culled instead of being sent out to people who will breed low quality animals. I know people try to keep from putting animals into the hands of these kind of people but who is to say where that animal goes years later.

 

[Vyxxin]

I'm not saying a piece of paper with letters and numbers gives anyone a right to breed. Years ago it was preached that quality AND pedigree made a breeding animal. Today we're preaching just outward quality? Nah. I got it, I got it YEARS ago. When I realized my breeding unpedigreed chins was not going to be tolerated within the chinchilla community I found my unpedigreed chins pet homes and went to shows (as I was told on here) I showed animals and purchased show animals. I met good, quality breeders (NOT big name breeders, two different things sometimes) and went to their homes. I stayed in their homes for hours learning chin qualities from them. I learned the importance (firsthand) of knowing what's on a pedigree and how that info can be used to trace ailments. I understand the best way is to get them to know quality. Pookinaround knows that I told her when she first started breeding, before she was a member here, to go to some shows. It's always the information I give. But it doesn't hurt to also say you don't breed unpedigreed animals as it's not the best way to do things to keep track of genetics/lines. You don't have to be harsh to NOT support breeding unpedigreed animals. Genetic health IS part of quality, and should also be educated on.

 

[EMSChins]

I just have to say that I know of several breeders that study pedigrees like most us used to read the back of a cereal box when we were kids. Heck some of them know my own animals pedigrees better than I do - I am talking 10-15 generations back! They live and breed by pedigree only!

I also have to say that I know of at least one breeder that is well known that has malo in their herd and continues to breed those lines - because of the background and them trying to reproduce a GSC from those lines.

Not all breeders are responsible enough to cull a line because it has malo in it, and these animal have pedigrees - how is that any different than breeding an animal with all of the right qualities but no pedigree???

Not all breeders will cull like you do Ange (not that I am singling you out). And those that do cull harshly can't say that they haven't had a genetic issue crop up out of nowhere so just because you take a hard line with culling doesn't mean the unexpected doesn't crop up - it does. It is a cold hard fact of breeding.

I don't have any animals without pedigrees at this point but I am not sure that not having a piece of paper would keep me from breeding a particular animal if it complimented and improved what I was trying to pair it with. I can't say for sure because the situation has never presented itself to me.

I do remember once seeing a beautiful BV female at a pet store...I would have bet money I could identify the breeder just by the conformation of the animal. She was beautiful! Was I tempted to purchase her and put her into breeding - absolutely! Did I do it? Absolutely not - but only because I knew it was a crap shoot and that I could get an equal or better animal for less money and know that at least the lines didn't conflict with what I would want to pair it with. There is never a health guarantee with a pedigree...it only gives you a bit of information about the lines and I at this point like as much info as I can get so I don't screw up what I have achieved so far.

 

[Vyxxin]

Well, if culling were done by all in the true sense of the word...genetic malady could be greatly reduced in chinchillas. I'm not saying I haven't had things pop up out of nowhere. I have. I've been around 9.5yrs now, sure I have. BUT when you can even reduce it...that's the point of breeding. Healthy, show quality, breeding quality chinchillas.

How can we tell people in all of these threads:

http://www.chins-n-hedgies.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37334&highlight=pedigree

http://www.chins-n-hedgies.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35879&highlight=pedigree&page=2

http://www.chins-n-hedgies.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34877&highlight=pedigree

http://www.chins-n-hedgies.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34472&highlight=pedigree

http://www.chins-n-hedgies.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33670&highlight=pedigree

(and that's just the first page under search term pedigree) that it's NOT okay to breed their animals or that their animals need separated and tell the OP (who told others not to breed w/o a pedigree in at least one of those threads) that it's okay, go ahead? One of those threads the OP said their animals were vet cleared for health? That wasn't good enough to breed, but pretty (or supposedly pretty) is? And even then, we always tell breeders that even a show placing isn't a right to breed. We have always told them that. I was told that.

I think we can send a dual message, one that says learn quality AND don't breed without a pedigree.

 

[Pookinaround]

I will say that I do understand where you are coming from about random people reading this thread and wanting to breed unpedigreed chins. Yes we should set the example and not be hypocritical. I think we do. I think that we have to keep in mind that the people even considering these things are HEAVILY into chinchillas. They go to shows, have great relationships with other breeders and honestly work toward having quality herds. There is a big difference that should be recognized here. There is a LOT more to breeding chins than just buying a good pedigreed pair and letting them go at it. It is a constant learning experience and series of building blocks. Those who are truly serious have that certain drive that makes them willing to go the extra mile to keep it evolving and I think that is important in being a good breeder.

 

[Riven]

Just curious, why put a unknown chin into your herd when you can just as easy get one that is known, its not like there is a shortage of chins.

Actually... there is not a shortage of chins, but it can be hard to find chins with specific traits, violets for example, it's hard to find really nice violets anymore, they're all dark and muddy or ratty looking.

To me this is not a chin without a pedigree. If you have a specific date, I find it hard to believe that someone would have 12 violets born on ONE day. Since the person you got them from got the chin directly from the breeder doesn't the breeder have a record that they sold that chin to that person?

Dogs have advantage over chins as far as pedigrees and genetic issues. Firstly dogs don't have a disease that really compares to malo. Malo can carry for generations before showing up. Dogs can all have their hips and eyes certified by the age of 18 months, actually I believe both can be done before the age of 12 months or sooner depending on the breed, chins can't be certified "malo free" at all, let alone at a younger age.

Let's say malo, unless you have a large number of animals, or know others who do, with that same lineage it's impossible to tell if malo is genetic from a pedigree and not environmental.

To the OP, did the owner have any kits born from this animal before? Perhaps someone she sold a kit to would have a copy of her pedigree from their animal's pedigree or at least her number. Again out of 12 animals born on a day I can't believe that all of them are violet, which makes me question the record keeping there. Depending on the number of animals total and how many of them are violets/carriers... I still think it would be very odd to have many violets born on the exact same day without having 1000's of animals.

 

[Dreamlite]

All the kits (2 litters) before had gone to pet homes, most of the market here. She only remembers the female was born in march of 2010 but not the specific day. That why I have been unable to get the pedigree. I'm working with the breeder to try to narrow it down but she had 12 female violet kits born that month so....

 

[bchins]

Does the breeder not have records saying who each of her chins went to? Or what date they were sold? My records for my chins have at least the first name of the buyer, and the date they were sold...

 

[Riven]

Was the chin previously shown? If so the show committee should have a record of who showed what animals and you could possibly track down the chins ID number there as well! Good luck on your quest.

 

[JoAnne]

Dale Look, one of the great "old timers" had a chin get out on the floor once and honestly could not figure out the pedigree. That animals turned out to be a Champion (Grand Show.) We purchased some offspring from that male based on the quality. Dale started at that point by assigning his brand, year letter and a number. This pedigree had a blank in its background for two years, but after a couple of generations we had a pedigree with which to proceed. While the immediate offspring of this line have long been taken out of the herd we still have some of that original Look line and have won many a Blue Ribbon with them. Trust the breeder, eliminate any offspring with problems and judge each animal based on its own qualities. These are all things you would do with each offspring regardless of its "pedigree". Good luck.

 

[Anne-Lise]

Because I have a (very) small herd, I will not breed animals with no pedigree. Probably also because all my animals are from the smae breeder too! I once lost the ped of a male. He was used to produced my 'first generation' of tan. So not knowing if the female I kept was related to her male (cause I lost the ped of her dad) I just rehomed him and bought another one. I also like to know exactly what's in the line, cause when I buy an animal, I also write the mutations next to the numbers. For me it's not just a piece of paper. Because I do mutes I use it to make sure their lineage is not full of other mutes.

My friend has an eb from the same breed as I and hers turned out to have malo. Looking at the ped, if there would have been a common ancestor, I would have stopped breeding him.

 

[Vyxxin]

Yeah, that's about my situation. I purchased a few animals from the same breeder. SOME had a few common ancestors while others were entirely unrelated. The ones with the shared ancestors came down with malo. The unrelated ones did not. SO, when I purchased future animals from this breeder (or from his lines) I did so, but avoided the "malo" lines.

 

[Dreamlite]

So why don't you share that animals number with the rest of us so we too can avaoid possible gentic problems? The breeder is obviously still using the line from your wording. This is why I think it should be more wdely available to other breeders. How many kits are out of that line in breeding around the country and we just don't know. You keep saying you can study a pedigree and KNOW they carry a genetic issue. But all I've ever deen is colors, show placings and breeder info. Until there is a open list of anaimls who we know share/pass on/ carry genetic issues we are only taking the word of the breeder. I have desided to rehome the female as a pet after the baby watch is over.

 

[Vyxxin]

Here's an example. If you purchase 7 animals from breeder XYZ. You see that animals 1,2, & 3 all share three ancestors in their first four generations XYZ A1, XYZ B9 & XYZ Z5. Animals 4, 5, 6, & 7 do NOT have those ancestors. The first three animals develop malo by 14mos while the other four animals never develop it...I think it's safe to say, avoid animals XYZ A1, XYZ B9 and XYZ Z5 in your pedigrees. Maybe not all are responsible, maybe it was just one or two of them paired with different animals. But the odds are better that these animals should just plain out be avoided.

That all said, the breeder I'm referring to no longer breeders and those animals were humanely euthanized as were many offspring (the one was a male, so produced a few by his 14mos of age). Not all offspring were euthanized, a few had already been sold to pet homes. Those animals' owners were alerted and warned that should malo show up within the first 3yrs I would replace those animals. Furthermore, while I had a good relationship with this breeder otherwise, I did feel the obligation to let other breeders who purchased from this breeder know so yeah, just doing my service to the chin community.

 

[ticklechin]

So why don't you share that animals number with the rest of us so we too can avaoid possible gentic problems? The breeder is obviously still using the line from your wording. This is why I think it should be more wdely available to other breeders. How many kits are out of that line in breeding around the country and we just don't know. You keep saying you can study a pedigree and KNOW they carry a genetic issue. But all I've ever deen is colors, show placings and breeder info. Until there is a open list of anaimls who we know share/pass on/ carry genetic issues we are only taking the word of the breeder. I have desided to rehome the female as a pet after the baby watch is over.

Malo is a dirty word, there are actual breeders who have been doing it for years who claim they have NEVER had one malo chin, you know they are lying like a rug but until it does not become a dirty word, the info will stay hidden. I disclosed and went public about a genetic mess chin who came from a "famous" ranch, I got private emails and PMs about their chins who had issues also but publically got trashed by other breeders, still do today after all these years. So good luck with that.