Charcoal or not?

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chincherub

Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2009
Messages
24
Location
Downingtown, PA
Recently, in classifieds I read about a disagreement on the classification of charcoals. If I remember correctly both Tunes and Mt. Zion chins said there was no such thing in the US. Now paging through the York show book where they tell how they separate and classify color what should be listed but Charcoal. Would someone please explain?
 
MCBA uses Charcoal/Ebony interchangeably as the name of the color section, though Ebony is more frequently used nowadays. For show purposes, they do not distinguish the mutations within the charcoal/ebony series from each other, and classify by appearance alone.

To the best of anyone's knowledge, all traces of the genetic mutation called Charcoal (bb) have been lost in the US, though it most likely does still exist here.
 
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The ebony gene here in the US has been so muddled together that at this point charcoal no longer exsists by itself...
 
Actually, charcoal has been dropped from MCBA shows. They are now called just ebony (although some show books are kind of behind the times!)
 
In the UK we still have both mutations classed separately - we do not use the terms "charcoal" and "ebony" or "pastel" and "tan" interchangeably. A few breeders are dedicated to continuing and improving the pure recessive charcoal chinchilla.

This thread might help a bit. :)
 
As claire mentionned, I've often been on Davidson Chinchilla website where you can see charcoal pictures.

Riven, do these breeders have websites? I'd love to know who they are.
 
There are a few breeders I know of and trust who claim to be working with charcoals and I have seen pictures in the past of the animals in question, but for reasons I do not know or understand they do not want it known by the general public that they have them.
 
I'm not really surprised, and actually quite glad, there are those keeping the mutation isolated in the US.
 
There are a few breeders I know of and trust who claim to be working with charcoals and I have seen pictures in the past of the animals in question, but for reasons I do not know or understand they do not want it known by the general public that they have them.

I have to say I am really glad to read that there are some breeders still working with the pure recessive charcoal and not mixing them in with ebonies - I am not surprised they are keeping their work "quiet" for now but I do hope that in time we see them "uncovered" (so to speak) because it would be such a shame to lose the mutation.
 
This probably wont be well recieved, but what is it exactly that we are trying to preserve with the charcoal that the ebony doesnt have?
 
I have a feeling valleyview chinchilla's charcoals are not really charcoals, but ebonies. They is just no way they would be $100-$120 if they were for sale. They are not common, and most likely would be sold for more.
 
Just to clarify, I am not saying this is a sure thing, but it is what I have seen and been told by people whom I personally do trust.

I have to say I am really glad to read that there are some breeders still working with the pure recessive charcoal and not mixing them in with ebonies - I am not surprised they are keeping their work "quiet" for now but I do hope that in time we see them "uncovered" (so to speak) because it would be such a shame to lose the mutation.
 
I agree with Chantel, as I've had all shades of ebonies - now if they breed true [the exact same] every time, maybe that's a different story.
I'm no expert, but does that photo of the "charcoal" look retouched, especially compared to the others? Maybe it's my screen!
 
I talked to Dick Bradford on the phone about this the other day and its curious, he said the charcoals reproduced the colored belly first generation the same way that ebonies do. To be frank, I dont understand how something can be recessive and reproduce the mutation color first generation.... Also why would we be monkeying around with setting this gene rather than just working on higher quality ebonies altogether reguardless of whether they are a recessive or dominant. Lastly, wouldnt we prefer a dominant mutation over a recessive?
 
Double check and make sure he's talking about the Broucke Charcoal. Tasco, Busse, and French Blue were all called charcoals as well (any mutation causing a colored belly is in the charcoal series, whether it's recessive or not), though they were known to be dominant, producing grey bellies in the first generation. Both the Busse and French Blue in the heterozygous form presented bellies that definitely showed grey, but tolerable enough to be classed as standards at shows. I have no idea when the word "ebony" began being used to describe any mutation causing a colored belly, but it replaced the word "charcoal" at some point. Either way, ebony is not a mutation and shouldn't be thought of as one, it is merely a term used to describe a phenotype. The Broucke Charcoal still remains a recessive mutation in the ebony/charcoal series.

Why work with ebonies at all if the market disapproves of dark bellies? Why bother improving them if they're never going to be as desirable as standard pelts, even if they were of equal quality? It's amazing to me ebonies survived at all, and another Lloyd Sullivan didn't destroy all animals with the mutation because it was deemed unfit to pelt.

Personally, I don't like the look of the (Broucke) Charcoal, and I would not choose to work with them. I prefer the glossy appearance of other mutations over the matte typical of charcoals. That's just my preference, regardless of where the market is leaning or what the current pet color fad is. However, I still believe any mutation is worth preserving, just to have it in the gene pool.

How many other spontaneous mutations have occurred, but were bred out instead of developed, just because they weren't favored by the market? What if a new mutation in the ebony series were to occur? Would we be able to recognize it? Even if it popped out of two supposedly pure standards, it's more likely to be said that there must have been ebony in the lines (especially since Busse and French Blue were called standards and bred into standard lines), rather than even remotely considered a genuinely new mutation.

I am in strong favor of separating the ebony mutations, and tracking genotypes rather than phenotypes, for that very reason: so we know what we have.
 
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Everybody has their own preference when it comes to mutations - I prefer the soft matte appearance of the recessive charcoals over the "every hair shiny black" ebony and I will continue to work with them. It deserves to be preserved in it's "pure" state where possible, regardless of the latest "fad" in colours and/or mutation mixes (as Mishalaa has stated above).
Each to their own. :)
 
Just curious. Where is the comment about LLoyd Sullivan coming from?
 
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