Breeding Bigger and Bigger Chins

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chechinchillas

chechinchillas

hmmmmmmm
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
546
Location
CIRCLEVILLE, OHIO
I am as guilty of this as anyone, but I wonder if we are shooting ourselves in the foot. At the shows if there are 2 chins that have equal quality the bigger one will win. So, we breed for bigger chins. My understanding is that a bigger chin makes a bigger pelt and that is why bigger is considered better. As the pelt market in the United States fades out, I am sure the judges will still like large size in chins. It is my experience that really large chins are not as prolific and isn't showing about what qualities make the best "breeding" chins. Very large females seem to take much longer to get pregnant if they ever do and have single babies once a year. Didn't the average size chin weight used to be 400 to 600 grams? Most of my guys are 800 to over 1,000 grams. The smaller chins seem to be much more fertile, have more litters and more kits per litter. I just wonder if I am taking my herd in the right direction. Thoughts?
 
I have not had a problem getting bigger chinchillas to breed. I've been told over and over again that big males don't breed so I've gotten a few extremely nice, large males for cheap prices. They all have taken to breeding immediately and usually lose weight in breeding. One of my smaller males that I took a chance on is on the other end of the spectrum. It took him two years to start breeding and then after that, I'm lucky if I get more than two babies from him a year and he always throws single kit litters.

The problem with big chins breeding does not come from a "larger" size in chinchillas but fat. I have a lot of large chinchillas that don't have a considerable amount of fat on them and they get pregnant easily and usually have litters of 2 or 3 babies with the occasional litters of 1 or 4 babies. They usually breed twice a year as well, but I would rather have a chinchilla give me one healthy litter every year instead of two litters of trouble. I've been told by several ranchers that the problem comes from large females that are also overweight (this usually comes from supplements given to the herd) because fat accumulates around the ovaries and causing reproductive problems.

I have a very chubby female here that was overweight. I don't feed supplements to my herd unless it's a female that just littered and is looking underweight. This female has been on straight hay and pellets since I got her in January and she lost some "fat" weight and rolls and now just looks like a big chin (though I still call her a fatty :D). She's currently pregnant. I was told not to buy her because she was a large, almost two year old black velvet so I was just asking for a non-breeder.

I guess to me, higher production is not everything in a herd. I prefer health in my litters over numbers, so slower producers don't bother me. I do expect them to litter at least once a year and I don't notice any less production from the extra big girls and the 700-800g girls.
 
Size has become more important at shows in recent years because it is much more prevelant then it used to be. We use to go to shows and only see 2 or 3 above average large chins and they were usually big off-color females that were 1 1/2 years old and should have been put into breeding earlier. Now, you go to shows and everyone has a few big animals and the quality is much better. If you don't have atleast above average size it is very hard to compete with the top show animals on the table. If you start breeding for size only, you will see slower production, smaller litter sizes, females that have trouble littering because they get tired out so easily, and generally your other good traits like blue color will lessen as the offspring gets bigger and bigger. It is the same as if you only breed for the bluest color chin, you'll end up with small, thin furred, blue little rat chins. It is best to try to balance out all the desired traits in show chinchillas. If you use a great big off-color female put it with a smaller blue colored male. If you breed big to big, you usually get a bigger offspring, but usually lose a little color on top. I have had the best success balancing out the desired traits of show chinchillas in my breeding program. If you lock in on only 1 specific trait and breed strictly for that, you will decline in overall quality of your animals even if you achieve that 1 specific trait in your offspring. It is a delicate balance, and for me it is always evolving into what can I improve the most next and once I feel I've achieved that trait throughout I look for the next one that needs improvement (i.e. color, size, belly, density, bar color, etc.). It is always a work in progress and trying to stay balanced on all desired traits throughout my breeding herd.
 
My concerns is when you have a larger animal, they are more prone to health issues. You see it in dogs, you see it in live stock.

We as humans constantly want "bigger". I'll throw out two examples: American Pit Bull Terriers are typically lean and athletic. Normally most are under 70lbs, some are in the 35lb range. You now have the "American Bully" Which is claimed to be a version of the APBT. You now have dogs that are 100+ lbs, who have bowed legs, not agile, and have a hard time moving. Similar to the English Bulldog, IMO. They were orignally able to work and could lead an active life, now they have a ton of health problems.

Chickens... You have your egg laying breeds, your dual purpose breeds (egg and meat) or your strictly meat breeds. The meat breeds get so large that they cannot live a normal life, and NEED to be butchered. They get so large that they cannot walk to their feed or water, if they do try to walk they are panting and out of breath within seconds.


Bigger, IMO is not always better. I hope to god we don't push our chinchillas that they are so large they have a hard time moving, that it gets harder for them to breathe, etc. I think we'll see an increase of leg issues as well.

I honestly don't look for the largest animals when I am out buying. I'd rather have 700-800 gram animals in breeding vs. 1000 gram + animals. I get knocked for size in some cases sure....but I think color and fur is more important then the size, when it can lead to increased health issues down the line.

For me it's not about them breeding faster or slower, its about an overall quality of life issue. I've seen it first hand in chickens (I will NEVER purchase that breed again, it was just cruel to keep them alive), and I'm seeing it in the dog world.
 
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Megan said:
My concerns is when you have a larger animal, they are more prone to health issues. You see it in dogs, you see it in live stock.

We as humans constantly want "bigger". I'll throw out two examples: American Pit Bull Terriers are typically lean and athletic. Normally most are under 70lbs, some are in the 35lb range. You now have the "American Bully" Which is claimed to be a version of the APBT. You now have dogs that are 100+ lbs, who have bowed legs, not agile, and have a hard time moving. Similar to the English Bulldog, IMO. They were orignally able to work and could lead an active life, now they have a ton of health problems.

Chickens... You have your egg laying breeds, your dual purpose breeds (egg and meat) or your strictly meat breeds. The meat breeds get so large that they cannot live a normal life, and NEED to be butchered. They get so large that they cannot walk to their feed or water, if they do try to walk they are panting and out of breath within seconds.


Bigger, IMO is not always better. I hope to god we don't push our chinchillas that they are so large they have a hard time moving, that it gets harder for them to breathe, etc. I think we'll see an increase of leg issues as well.

I honestly don't look for the largest animals when I am out buying. I'd rather have 700-800 gram animals in breeding vs. 1000 gram + animals. I get knocked for size in some cases sure....but I think color and fur is more important then the size, when it can lead to increased health issues down the line.

For me it's not about them breeding faster or slower, its about an overall quality of life issue. I've seen it first hand in chickens (I will NEVER purchase that breed again, it was just cruel to keep them alive), and I'm seeing it in the dog world.
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I am with Megan on this.
My personal preference, quality and health over size.
 
Yes, always health and quality over size, always, always, always. I'm just wondering about the long term effect of breeder larger and larger chins and is that healthy. It's not about quantity, it's always about quality. If breeding larger and larger chins affects how they would normally breed and produce is that healthy?
 
chechinchillas said:
Yes, always health and quality over size, always, always, always. I'm just wondering about the long term effect of breeder larger and larger chins and is that healthy. It's not about quantity, it's always about quality. If breeding larger and larger chins affects how they would normally breed and produce is that healthy?
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Just by having them in captivity, we change how they would normally reproduce.
 
I have thought to myself when are chins going to get too big for their hearts and their legs. I have no idea but I know I have rescued some fat flabby chins and it no time they have lost weight and gotten in good active shape which makes me happy. I know there are both fat and or large chins, either way I worry for their popcorn-ability.
 
Our domesticated chinchillas are generations of genetic crosses of the 3 wild types of chinchillas (Costina, Laniguera, and Brevicadata). These 3 types have completely different body characteristics and sizes by nature. Dick and Mary Jo Bradford traveled to South America and visited a wildlife preserve that had wild Brevicadata's. They are twice the size of our large domesticated chins and there fur is so dense Mary Jo couldn't get her coarsest tooth comb through it. I agree with Tabitha that size is not as much of an issue as health and overweight chins are. You have to establish where your size in your chins is coming from. Is it truly genetic or a result of over feeding and bad nutrition? If it is genetic and the animals are healthy then large size should not be a detriment. If the animal is big from obesity, it will affect reproduction, activity, general health of the animal.
 
Off topic:
I would love to see a wild Brevicadata. Was this a long time ago? I thought there weren't anymore of the Brevi left in the wild. I just read the last wild sighting was in 1953. I wonder if there are still any left in the preserve
 
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I will be the first to admit that size was never the first quality I was concerned with in my breeding herd - I worked to get the other qualities where I wanted them first, and am now working to add more size to my lines. I know that this lack of size is what kept many of my animals at phase champ instead of moving up to section, and I acknowledge that, but I won't compromise color, clarity, etc - as well as health - to get it.

I don't, however, think a genetically larger chinchilla produced over several generations is a huge atrocity, although they could become one. An overweight chinchilla fed too many treats or over-supplemented definitely could be disgustingly unhealthy. And I see the advantage of a larger animal in the fur market, and the appeal of a larger chinchilla in today's show world.

Megan's example of breeding for bigger in the American Pit Bull Terrier hits home for me. My own APBT is a lean, ~50 lb, athletic dog. He can make it around an agility course so quickly that I am exhausted running it with him during practices. He is what an APBT should be. But most of the ones you see today would drop over trying to run that same course, and that's a shame - this is an athletic breed and is being bred to be anything but.

We definitely have to be careful when we're breeding for size not to bring in health issues.
 
mark miller said:
Dick and Mary Jo Bradford traveled to South America and visited a wildlife preserve that had wild Brevicadata's. They are twice the size of our large domesticated chins and there fur is so dense Mary Jo couldn't get her coarsest tooth comb through it.
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Really? Fascinating. How did they manage to catch a wild brevi to comb it?
Did they take photos? I'm sure everyone on the forum would love to see photos of wild chins from someone with personal experience of seeing them. :yes:
 
It was a few years ago at the Oklahoma ECBC show. The Bradford's shared their story and experiences of their South America trip and yes they did have pictures of the brevi's. The preserve had 2 or 3 males, but no females. Mary jo did hold one and attempt to get her grooming comb through the fur, but could not. Dick said it was the densest fur he'd ever felt on any animal. I'm sure they would share their information, pictures, and experience with anyone who would like to know more about it. It was several years ago, but a once in a lifetime experience. I'm sure they still have their pictures.
 
The chicken example is not because of being fed too much or too many treats.

I purchased 12 egg laying hens, and 12 cornish rocks (meat chickens). All chickens were raised the same way, fed the same amount of food, and were kept free range. By 2-3 months of age all cornish chickens had to be butchered and killed, as they could barely make it to their feed and water. They were panting after walking just a few steps.

This is exactly what breeding "bigger and bigger" animals does. The purpose for these chickens is to get the biggest animal possible for slaughter, for human consumption. Its genetics, not diet. They were fed the same exact thing my egg and dual purpose (meat and egg) chickens get... I think its cruel that these animals had to live like that, and HAD to be butchered or they'd starve to death.

If we keep breeding bigger and bigger animals and make it into a "genetic" trait and keep on doing it..it won't be long until our chinchillas quality of life reduces greatly. I think for some people its something you need to see for it to hit home.. I saw it with the chickens, and its a **** shame people will create breeds/types of animals to get so large that they need to be put down.

I would love to see a standard come up for the chins where they should be between x and x size to even out competion, and stop people from seeking animals that are going to be so huge they can't move. It may not be today, it may not be tomorrow or 5 years down the line..but sooner or later if we keep going with the "bigger is always better" mindset it's going to happen to these guys too..
 
Cornish chickens are bred specifically for size and short lifespan. They were bred NOT to live normal lives but to be butchered early and provide a large source of meat in a short amount of time. The chicken example is an EXTREME example which, IMO, does not fit into how we breed chinchillas. We breed for so many different traits in chinchillas that, like Mark said, we breed for a balance, not extremes of any single trait. Not to mention, how many years have chickens been domesticated? How many years have they gone through selective, extreme breeding practices?

Comparing chinchillas to dogs is rather ridiculous to me. Look at what our domestic dogs originated from...coyotes and wolves. My yorkie doesn't look like either of them and neither do bulldogs. We've bred them so extreme already that any more specific breeding of them is easily visible within a few generations. Look at a wild chinchilla and a captive chinchilla..there isn't a whole lot of difference there other than the mutations. The mutations arose from natural mutations and not selective breeding.

We aren't breeding chinchillas for size that is clearly not genetically possible for them to hold. I have yet to meet any chinchilla so large that it cannot move and I have seen some very large chinchillas.

Anyone that breeds purely to make bigger and bigger chinchillas is not breeding correctly. I don't think you'll find any breeder that will say they value "x" trait above all others to the point of disregarding the other traits and health. You also have to realize that, no matter what YOU are breeding for, the overall goal of breeding chinchillas is to create a usable pelt. You can't use a pelt from an immobile animal that can't get out of its own excrement. Also, on the show table...larger is not always better. My animals have taken higher placings than animals larger than them because they are better overall animals. The only time larger animals should take the table is when they have all the other traits in addition to their size.

Honestly, I really disregard most debates when people start comparing chinchillas to other animals that have been domesticated for hundreds or thousands of years. It's comparing apples and oranges.

I prefer my chinchillas larger, but not fast growing. I have seen negative health effects in rapidly growing chinchillas, but not in overall larger chinchillas.
 
I have a few lines of late bloomers. they do not reach full size until well past my other lines, They get quite large though and are healthy. One has now lived for 16 years in breeding and was just retired. She still looks like the 1A girl I put into breeding. But since she is pregnant now it will be her last litter she deserves to move in with my other bachelorettes for hopefully another 10 years :)

Size I feel isn't as importat as other qualities. I don't want tiny chinchillas I prefer 700-800 grams. and not all judges prefer large. You learn wich judges like size over everything and which don't. It is somewhat opinion based when it comes down to it with the judges. They all have their favorite colors and qualities. Some are even known for hating a specific color/quality
 
I'm not as big into size as I am into fur quality. I would rather see a 700-800 gram tightly furred, perfect color animal than a 1000 gram chin that has open hips and is off color. Would I like size in my herd..yeah I would prefer my animals to be more of the 800-900 gram range. Will I get there..eventually. It just takes time and patience.

Jessica
 
Actually Tab, I think its perfectly fine to compare them to other animals in this sense. If we select one trait, size, and continue to keep breeding larger and larger animals we'll see animals that are too large to live a healthy life.. As I said it may not be in 5 years, but it will happen if we keep on doing it. Just because it happened in another species, and has not yet happened in chinchillas does not mean we need to turn a blind eye and say it won't happen to us. Chins haven't been domesticated all that long..but they have taken off in the main stream pet trade. They breed fairly fast, and within no time you have generations being born. We're already filled with back yard breeders.... from here its only a downhill battle, IMO.

When you change something too much from its orignal form, you end up with health issues. It doesn't matter if its a dog, a chicken, a cow, a chinchilla or a snake... You mess with something too much, and it just creates over all problems.
 
Without going to South America and looking at the original chinchillas, can you really say confidently that we've changed them so much from a wild chinchilla? Sure, they are different now than the animals we started with in captivity, but who's to say they didn't capture 11 genetically inferior chinchillas and all our work has been to bring them back to what chinchillas should be?

With how we breed chinchillas and the traits we breed for, it's almost impossible to breed an extremely large chinchilla that has a desirable coat. I've seen some really big chinchillas and usually they lose density and color. So you breed them to something that's smaller with nice color and density, and you lose some of the size. It's a constant back and forth tug-of-war when breeding chinchillas. As long as we hold standards for ALL of the traits, I don't see chinchillas being bred to an extreme. Yes, larger animals can do well on the table, but they also need other qualities to do best on the table.

If BYB's are going to breed purely for size and ignore the other traits, who's going to stop them? No one. No one is able to do anything about their crappy breeding practices as it is, so why worry about what they might do? I've already seen BYB breeders run their herds into the ground with too many mutations, if they run them down in other directions of breeding that's not my concern. If a breeder that wants to show wants to breed purely for size, they'll be corrected on the show table.

I just don't think it's an accurate comparison between chinchillas and animals that have been domesticated for over ten times as long. If you line up our chinchillas next to wild chinchillas, people recognize them as chinchillas. If you line up a yorkie, pitbull, and wolf, people don't automatically make the connection that they're the same thing. If someone unfamiliar with chickens was presented with different breeds lined up like a silky and a banty, they would not recognize them as being the same bird. We've bred chickens and dogs for so long that we've completely altered their genetic makeup. With chinchillas, we brought them here to breed because we like how they naturally look. We don't need better egg laying ability, better hunting noses, or any one small specific trait to be bred for over all others.

Saying that breeding bigger and bigger is going to destroy chinchillas is saying that breeders put the highest emphasis on size in their breeding programs. I know for any breeder, the most important thing is a well rounded chinchilla. A "perfect" chinchilla that everyone strives for but have achieving because it requires a delicate balance of many traits. If we breed for one single trait and ignore all others, then yes I see chinchillas being bred to a horrible extreme. As long as standards stay as they are, I don't see chinchillas falling down a slippery slope into something that no longer resembles a chinchilla.
 
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