You're making me dizzy!

[PetProductsByNature]

All of this conflicting advise! How do we weed through it all and find out the real truth? I was hoping that when I joined CnH that I could get to know chins a little better and get some fresh ideas about what extra products we can provide that are "safe” and it's making me crazy. (REALLY...I understand the concept of a "forum". illowfight I love the people here, some of you have been our customers for many years and I love you all, it’s just the conflicting advise that stirs my innards. What I've learned from my one short week as a member is you can't please most of the people most of the time, and some people you can never please...such is life.

All we really want to do is make chinchilla stuff that will provide safe, natural chewing for chins and it’s really making us insane! :hair: I‘ve read through threads and so often it’s conflicting advice. I’m really trying to learn here, but… We have a great variety (maybe the best variety available) of chin safe woods, but what can we do with them that won’t just be the same ole’ everyday boring, cleaning, cutting and drilling, packaging, labeling and shipping? That’s all we really want…just a little spice. We've got creative juices boiling...

Whatever I suggest, whatever ideas Jeff and I come up with, whatever we dream up to give your chins an opportunity to perch or play or chew away, somebody, somehow manages to find something, anything wrong with it. We could get a chinchilla, but honestly, we looked at that option several years ago and decided it just wouldn’t be fair to the chin. :hilarious:Our life is just not that calm or predictable. We realize that there are a lot of members here with good advice, but who REALLY knows? Who do we trust? So much of the advise seems to conflict. Who should we listen to?

I really want do find that out! Chinchilla owners are our biggest customers and we want to make you toys, swings, toy parts, perches & ledges that you will feel comfortable and confident adding to your chins’ habitat.

Zinc-coated copper wire “will work”, (even though it contains 2 metals that are considered toxic to chins.) That was mentioned on THIS forum. Who do we listen to? Whose advise do we trust? Someone please tell me. I know common sense is a big factor and something I really need to use, but when people sound like they know what they’re talking about, and maybe they do and maybe they don’t, it really makes me question my own common sense.

Electric fence wire is “safe” but it was suggested that it might be made of aluminum (Jeff says absolutely not and him…I know and trust…nothing personal to anyone else) and may be conductive, but what wire is not conductive? Have you ever stuck a wire in a light socket that did NOT shock you? (Personally, I’m not willing to try that experiment.) And what is “mechanics wire” anyway. I went to Napa Auto Parts and they just laughed at me! (It’s no wonder that Jeff sat in the truck and made me go in alone.) After much persistence and assuring them I had been advised on a forum that this was exactly what I needed, they offered me a spool of wire that had a plastic coating on it. I opted out since plastic is NOT supposed to be chin-safe either.

Polar fleece is the only fleece considered safe for chins. I read that on this forum also. What I know about fleece…regular fleece is a synthetic fabric; it’s manmade. (Synthetic, probably petroleum based.) Polar fleece is made of recycled plastic, also manmade. If plastic is not “safe”, how is polar fleece? Do chins actually EAT it? Or are they like Krickett (our Macaw) and just like to tear it up? And if someone who makes fleece items for chins sold it to you, would YOU ever know? Ultimately, they’re both petroleum products. Am I missing something here? :hmm:

An eye screw (eye hook) according to members may be an accident waiting to happen, regardless of the length of the screw end or the size of the thread and whether it's glued for extra security or even if it is up near the cage top where the chin won’t even get close to it. I was advised that I go to the classifieds to get ideas and by golly, they’re there…toys with eye screws, Elmer’s non-toxic school glue, wire and chains.

Now a 1/4" veggie tanned leather strip that a Macaw cannot chew through may pose a danger to a chinchilla if it chews through one...have you ever seen the beak on a Macaw? Krickett could break my finger with her beak if she wanted. If rawhide is not considered okay, then why is leather? Aren’t they both made of cowhide? On the other hand, wire with loose ends (that may or may not get pulled out of the wood that you hide it inside of) would be recommended. (Couldn’t the chin get poked? And wouldn’t that hurt?) Oh yeah, we're back to what kind of wire is safe...is it the electric fence wire? Oh, wait, and what is “regular wire”? Could I use a coat hanger…that looks like “regular wire”.

Who are the experts?

Yesterday I had 2 customers/members from this forum PM me with concerns over green around the edges of wood that they received in their scrap paks. I did a search on the forum and found that these woods are apparently moldy or mildewed and instead of giving them to your chins, you should throw them away, and perhaps the whole bag of wood, and never ever purchase from this supplier again. Our Cottonwood and our Ocotillo have green bark on them. That is the way Mother Nature made them. These are considered “safe woods”. Our red willow has a red or dark brown bark but sometimes peels in small pieces revealing a green “new bark” underneath. This is not mold or mildew, but the advise on the forum is if it’s green, throw it out…it’s toxic. No wonder customers are skeptical. No wonder members have such conflicting opinions.

What I’ve learned my first week on Chins N Hedgies is just do it! Do what I think; no I mean, what I BELIEVE!!! is safe. I’ve done my research and I continue to check in with the people that I’ve trusted for the last several years for advise to make sure everything PPBN offers is chin-safe. I’m not trying to make any enemies here, (stir up a little controversy, maybe) :wink2: but I tell you what…I’m out in the shop, so preoccupied with all of this confusion, and all of the conflicting advise, I’m surely going to cut one of my fingers off. Has anyone else noticed that the advise is hard to navigate through? I really do understand the concept of a forum, or I wouldn't even bring it up.

 

[ABBY W.]

I completely agree and sympathize with you. Chinchillas are still pretty new to the pet market, and are still considered exotic. Unfortunately, there is much that is still unknown about them. There are many aspects of chinchilla care that come down to personal choice and comfort, matters of opinion, and personal experience. It's frustrating, I know, not to have definitive answers for some of these questions. But, even among the old-timers there are different ways of doing things and differing opinions on the "best" way.

The bottom line is, until more research is conducted, a lot of these things are going to be a "go with your gut" kind of decision. As long as you have done your research, you should have enough information to make a decision you can be comfortable with. Don't stress yourself so much with trying to please everyone, because it simply won't happen. No matter how hard you try, or how quality your product, someone is going to be unhappy with it. Go with what the majority of your customers are comfortable with and you should do fine.

Perhaps it might be helpful for you to take some of these questions and do a survey on here to find out the majority opinions.

 

[tunes]

Ehhhhhh - Where to start.

First, realize that some pet owners are going to be positively rabid about what can and cannot be used. Let them be. Just like you'll see people yelling NEVER USE PLASTIC. I use plastic. In 9 years I've never had a chin with a blockage or whatever from plastic. Lots of people use plastic, they just won't admit it because they don't want to get jumped on.

Wire: When I made hanging toys, I went to the local hardware store and bought a roll of wire. It wasn't triple fairy dust coated, made by munchkins, kid tested, mother approved. It was just wire. It comes on a blue spool and it weighs a ton. Nobody told me it had be specially manufactured. I just bought some and used it. I did make sure that it was a clean wire, as in, when I ran my hands down it, a bunch of black stuff didnt' come off. It was just plain fence wire.

Fleece: For every 10 people who say fleece is fine, there will be 1 who says it isn't. <shrugs> I use it, tons of people use it. That ought to speak for itself. As far as "polar" versus other fleece. I don't know about where everybody else is, but the local fabric stores carry only one kind of fleece and it's fleece, without the polar attached. If you google it, it's the same thing.

Wood: I have bought your wood, I think, since you pretty much started up. I trust whatever I get from you. Some of that wood has green on it. What people don't realize is green does not mean mold/lichen. It's just the color of the wood. When someone asks or voices a concern, just say "it's the way it's supposed to be" and leave it at that. It's sad, but there have been so many people selling crappy wood, they panic at the first site of anything they haven't seen before. Slap a disclaimer up on your site, explain what it is, then if someone writes, provide a link and let it go.

Eye hooks: I have used eye hooks in all my melamine cages. No one died on them. <rolls eyes> Seriously people! Chinchillas are not made out of spun glass. They will not die from all the things that people seem to think they will. I watch people panic "OMG, my chin ate a miniscule piece of plastic off of a bag." Then someone will scream VET. I wouldn't go to the vet, for pete sake. I would just watch to see that everything was okay.

Bottom line, you can't please everybody all the time. There's always going to be somebody who has to pick every little thing apart, because they can't stand not to. If it's something you are really worried about being unsafe, ask someone you trust and either use it or not. If you were to run a poll, you'd probably get a 50/50 answer on it anyway!

Editted to add: Missed the leather comment. If you have it and want to use it, use it. I know many people who buy toys made by a specific person and they have leather on them. Again, I think it's a waste of money because they chin's don't chew it so it's basically wasted. Here's the thing though, if buyer A doesn't think the leather is safe for chins............don't buy it? Wow - tough concept. For those that don't have a problem with it, they will buy it. With the swing, I think a chain or wire would just be sturdier, but it's not because I think a chin will die due to the fact that you used leather.

 

[alli713]

Lots of good points! I'll just touch on things I know..

Fleece is fleece like Peggy said, yeah there's anti-pill, but both that an the polar fleece are the same. Yes, it's petroleum based. Most chins don't eat fleece. Most don't even tear it apart. Some chins will though. But it's the fact that it doesn't come apart in strings is what makes it safe. There aren't strings for the chins to eat and get impacted on. Technically fleece could be swallowed in huge chunks if chewed the right way, but frankly, most chins don't do this, which is why it's considered safe.

I sell cottonwood, so yes, I know that it does tend to get a green color on parts of it. I think what people fear is that some members have been known to sell wood with lichen on it. Some lichen can be toxic, so it's safest to stay away from it. So with having people sell lichen wood, I know some members are wary when they see something they're unsure of on their wood. And also, some sellers have sold wood that got moldy while in the mail. So I think some people are just wary.

Plastic is a debate like Peggy said. I don't use it, just because chins enjoy chewing wood more. And I wouldn't use plastic bottom cages for the fact that the chin can get out if it is so inclined to chew the bottom apart. I just think there's better things than plastic, but some people use it. It's really up to the owner. Some chins don't chew plastic. And most don't ingest it. But it can happen.

I wouldn't give veggie-tanned leather. That's just me. I wouldn't give rawhides either. A chin is a plant eating animal, so I don't see the need to give them an animal skin to chew on. Birds are a bit different because they don't tend to eat their toys, they just destroy them. Chins do eat some of their toys. Some people say they don't but I know my chins eat the bark off their toys. I think they tend to leave the bigger pieces behind.

I think that with anything, you're going to have varying opinions on most things.

 

[HaleyGoBoom]

I agree with what's been said and I think its great that you're actually doing extra research just to try and better your products for our little guys!

 

[AZChins]

Aluminum is just soft - the chins could bend it and destroy the toy faster. I used plain old steel wire, nothing fancy.

I'm not sure about the rest of it.

 

[starleomach]

I have used rawhide. Never had an issue. I don't dump a big old bone in there but I have some hanging toys with it. You are not going to make everyone happy. After all the years some of us have done things there is always someone who will tell us we are wrong. often it is someone just parroting something they heard somewhere else like the plastic debate.

 

[menagerie]

Fleece: For every 10 people who say fleece is fine, there will be 1 who says it isn't. <shrugs> I use it, tons of people use it. That ought to speak for itself. As far as "polar" versus other fleece. I don't know about where everybody else is, but the local fabric stores carry only one kind of fleece and it's fleece, without the polar attached. If you google it, it's the same thing.

There is something called Sherpa Fleece that looks more like sheep skin. I wouldn't use that for chins.

 

[arf2184]

Everyone has their own opinions on things. Some are just parroting what other people have said. Really, people just need to research and figure out what they believe and works for them. It also comes down to how much of a risk things are...like driving or crossing the street. Both can be very dangerous, yet its a risk most are willing to take.

Debates over what's safe and what isn't and what's right or wrong are seen with every species of pet. I think feeding most dog foods is like feeding your dog cereal everyday for his/her entire life which is just nuts. I prefer to feed raw meat and left overs. Most people think that's nuts because they've been brought up to believe raw meat is bad and dog food is best (I used to think that too). My vet says the dogs look great however so raw works for us. There is no cut and dry right or wrong.

My opinions on the topics mentioned for what they're worth...

Fleece is fleece. They all look the same to me. Could it be harmful if ingested...sure, its possible. But I haven't had a chin yet who preferred fleece to pellets and hay. I've had chins destroy hammocks, but they don't ingest the fleece (or not enough to make a difference anyhow)...I find tiny pieces of fleece fuzz all over the bottom of the cage. These chins get the hammock taken away because hammock are not meant to be chewed so giving them one is just a waste.

Same with plastic. I choose not to use much plastic as it gets destroyed quickly and is a waste of money, but I don't think having plastic in the cage is likely to kill a chin. If ingested, could it be harmful? Probably, but as with the fleece...I've always found bits of plastic on the cage floor if they've chewed it, showing it's not being eaten, just chewed. I prefer to not use it. Why use man made plastic when nature provides wood, which usually stands up to chewing longer and I like it better.

As for metals...I'm weary of using chain as once the wood is gone it has the potential of getting wrapped around a leg if its hanging loose. Having had chins get legs caught up on just the cage wire, this is not a risk I'm willing to take. If I use chain, both ends are attached to something and I put big hunks of wood on so they aren't likely to completely chew them off without my noticing. Mainly though, I use I-bolts for stringing toys. I don't know what kind of metal they are. I've been using them for years. The chins chew on the wood, not the bolt. I've also been using eyelets and lanyard clips with no problems of any kind.

Some wood is green, some hay is brown. That's just nature. For me, mold has been fairly easy to differentiate from green bark.

Now a 1/4" veggie tanned leather strip that a Macaw cannot chew through may pose a danger to a chinchilla if it chews through one...have you ever seen the beak on a Macaw? Krickett could break my finger with her beak if she wanted.

I don't use rawhide (no particular reason), but on the chewing chin vs. the strength of a Macaws beak...a persistent chin can chew through anything. I had a trio demolish a stainless steel bottle guard. It took them a while, but they did it. I imagine its like carving into stone...if you keep working at it, you're bound to make a dent.

 

[eroomlorac]

I agree with the above posters. I bought a roll of wire meant for electric fences and I've been making my chinnies toys for over a year now. They don't really chew the wire once it's been exposed. I tend to use my good sense when taking care of my animals. I would say to you to continue making and preparing items as you see fit. Most people will buy your items and be happy. The occassional customer will not be happy and won't buy from you again, maybe, but as you said, you can only aim to please the majority. Don't drive yourself crazy trying to please everyone. If there is leather strips in my scrap pak, I probably won't use it but it won't stop me for a minute from buying from you again. But then again, maybe I just may give it a try and see what the little chinnie girls do. It's my choice and I sure don't expect that the world is going to revolve around me and the preferences I have for my chinnies. You're products come highly recommended and I would just proceed as you have been.

 

[PetProductsByNature]

"I don't use rawhide (no particular reason), but on the chewing chin vs. the strength of a Macaws beak...a persistent chin can chew through anything. I had a trio demolish a stainless steel bottle guard. It took them a while, but they did it. I imagine its like carving into stone...if you keep working at it, you're bound to make a dent."

(Sorry, I don't know yet how to quote a small piece of a post, but that's from above... )
I didn't mean that Krickett can NOT chew through a piece of leather, but that she can't snap it in half first bite. But I will notice that it is getting stretched out before the toy falls on her or with her on it and causes her harm and remove it from her habitat. That is ultimately my responsibility as her caretaker. Really, she just likes to gnaw on them because it's different from the wood. She will also sling a beer can up and down for an hour just for the sound it makes then go about tearing it to little pieces...I suppose some bird experts would tell me not to let her do that, that it isn't safe to let her have an aluminum can or that slinging like that will cause her harm, but I see no harm and she is my responsibility.
I agree with all of the above posts. We need to listen to the advise of others, that doesn't mean we need to take their advice, because ultimately, the responsibility is our own, as pet owners to do what we believe is right for our pets. Thank you all for your support and encouragement. We'll keep doing the research and we'll keep listening to those that tell us what we do might be wrong, but ultimately, we'll do what we think is right...and that will be what we believe is safe.

 

[ticklechin]

You can't please all the people all the time, do what YOU think is right or you will drive yourself crazy!

 

[Snickers]

Plastic - I used pvc tubes a long time ago. Then when I 1st started with CnQ people were saying it was bad. I threw out all my pvc. I know a top rancher and someone else that has a store that uses pvc. They both said they don't ingest it they just chew at it. They said whoever said it doesn't know.

Fleece - I don't know the difference since I don't sew.

Wood - Out of the people out there selling wood (not ledges, shelves) I would just buy it from Barbi or Sally. I tried different people on here and when CnQ was up and was very disappointed. It's also hard to get your money back.

 

[Stackie]

I agree with a lot that has already been said. Some people see chins as very frail, vunerable creatures. I have seen first hand how hardy they can be. You know those over-protective moms that make their kids wash their hands everytime they go outside, only buy them the healthiest foods, make them wear helmets, shoulder pads, knee pads.....

Like it's been said, do what you believe is safe. You're always going to have those over-protective people, but many of us have owned chins for quite some time and can use judgement as to what is safe. I've looked over your website and see nothing alarming, and in fact I hope to be ordering from you soon.

 

[kpc]

I am new to being a chin mom (I have had chins for 3 months ) and I too found alot of information confusing. I removed my plastic ramps because my chins were chewing on them, but I kept the shelfs that they are not chewing on if they start chewing on them I will remove them. I did make some fleece liners to go over the wire bottoms.

 

[emily.j.roth]

Just a few things to add from my experiences. Overall; just do what you want =) In the end, the hardheaded people who don't think your product is "chin-safe" just won't buy it, and honestly, who wants to deal with those people on a regular basis anyway?

Okay, so the wire thing: Most chins won't chew on the wire part of a toy. I attach my loofah chews to the side of the cage using floral wire, and he is a lot more interested in chewing on that loofah than the wire. If certain wires aren't safe, then why do people use chicken wire/poultry netting/hardwire cloth etc. on their cages? My chin is 8 months old and has been in a cage covered in hardwire cloth his whole life. Sure, he chews at it sometimes, but he's never gotten sick off of it. People use unknown metals when they purchase cages from pet stores and online, which is usually coated in an unknown substance, but no one says anything, and no one's chin has died from chewing on the metal as far as I know.
Now, the leather. Personally, if the leather is truly raw hide with no chemicals added to it, it's fine. Chances are a chin will get one taste of that, and go "eww, dead cow? Why would I want that?". Now, I wouldn't trust my chin because I have personally seen him chewing on my nice black leather belt before I could take it away, but that doesn't mean that he even ingested it, he might have just enjoyed the texture for all I know.

In the end, trust your judgment, like I said before. Most of us on here consider ourselves parents of some sort, and the chins our children. So, like any parents in the "real" world, you'll have the people who don't think or show discrimination in terms of what their children eat, drink, or do. Then you'll have those that would probably keep their children in a sanitary room away from the rest of society. Then, you'll have parents who have the common sense to look at the product and judge weather or not it's safe and appropriate for their specific needs.

Good luck in your chin-ventures!!

 

[AndreaMD02]

i just read this post...i haven't looked at the replies...but i think you are completely insane..or drunk. i'm not sure which. you need to calm down and understand the difference of how materials work in different situations.
sure plastic can be bad to be ingested...but how many types of plastics are there? there's a huge range of soft to hard plastics...some which are entirely unchewable. stop looking at minute details and look at the big picture. not everything in the world is out to get you...or your chin...
you know your chin better than anyone else...stick to your own ideas if you don't want to hear from others.

 

[AndreaMD02]

i just read this post...i haven't looked at the replies...but i think you are completely insane..or drunk. i'm not sure which. you need to calm down and understand the difference of how materials work in different situations.
sure plastic can be bad to be ingested...but how many types of plastics are there? there's a huge range of soft to hard plastics...some which are entirely unchewable. stop looking at minute details and look at the big picture. not everything in the world is out to get you...or your chin...
you know your chin better than anyone else...stick to your own ideas if you don't want to hear from others.

Let me go back and apologize, I was a bit harsh. I know how you feel about all the confusing information, its really overwhelming. but in the end, you are the pet owner and you can do whatever you want. think about all those pet owners that don't care about their pets at all, they leave them in such horrible conditions. As long as you are trying your best to provide for your pet then you are doing the right thing. do as much research as you can, and then make your own judgement. don't beat yourself up over it. good luck.

 

[saphire]

With all due respect AndreaMD02,
She is not insane nor drunk, she is a chinsafe supplier that works hard on giving us the best natural products for our chins.

She is only voicing her concern on the conflicting information/instructions given for chin products. She has to deal with customers that don't know how to tell the difference between mold and the color of certain trees under it's bark.
People want the best for their chins and don't make the difference in overzellous (if that's a word :9 ) or reasonable.
Sooo, maybe take the time to read and see what she is all about before judging her. ;0)She is most likely more knowledgeable about chins than many of us and you I am sure.

 

[AndreaMD02]

With all due respect AndreaMD02,
She is not insane nor drunk, she is a chinsafe supplier that works hard on giving us the best natural products for our chins.

She is only voicing her concern on the conflicting information/instructions given for chin products. She has to deal with customers that don't know how to tell the difference between mold and the color of certain trees under it's bark.
People want the best for their chins and don't make the difference in overzellous (if that's a word :9 ) or reasonable.
Sooo, maybe take the time to read and see what she is all about before judging her. ;0)She is most likely more knowledgeable about chins than many of us and you I am sure.

i understand. i didn't mean to judge. i was just angry..well you know, life happens. bad day (uncle died). i'm sorry to take out my anger. i really am. what i'm really trying to say is to stop stressing about the little things in life. i hate petty arguments. i don't think any of us has done real primary research on chinchillas. if only we had the money, i know. we ALL want whats best. and isn't that the most important thing?