Violets Pro's and Con's

[Sheri]

MOd's....If this is in the wrong place I am sorry, please move it....

I have a Mosaic V/C I have been threatening to get rid of because I am fairly knew to breeding chins and had heard some horror stories about violets. My mom who works with me and my chins (has 2 of her own now) wants to keep him and get a violet female to go with him.

I want to know what others think are the pro's and con's of breeding violets. Any advice is welcome.

Thank you for replys.

 

[brekai722]

I have been breeding violets for about 2 yrs. My first litter was Violet. I find that violets are as easy as any others. My female has had some of the most beautiful kits I've had born here. The kits are a result of violet to violet breeding. I've never heard the horror stories but I don't feel there is any problems. I have the parents of my first violet breeder and they still are throwing beautiful kits.

 

[corneliuschins]

Breeding violets is as easy as breeding other chins. Producing healthy chins who live a long full life is a different subject. The reason that there are horror stories about breeding violets is because violet is a recessive gene. Recessive genes are notoriously "less healthy" than other genes. This is the reason people say always breed violet to standard, or standard v/c. Of course your chances of getting more violets are slim, but your chances of breeding healthy animals increases. If you head to a show anywhere you can take a look at good violets and probably a few bad violets too. There are different rules in pet trade vs showing animals. Is your violet a blue violet, or a red violet? Is your animal large enough to produce viable babies? Many violets are small, poorly furred, and red. These are the traits that you do not want continue to produce. There are many breeders that will help people make choices as to what animals should be bred and how to pair them to produce the best animals possible. There are so many issues with breeding animals that need to be taken into account when you are breeding them. I guess the argument could go in both directions because it depends on what you are breeding for. I always say for new breeders to stick with Standards for a while, you'll learn so much about fur quality, color and structure in standards that you can apply when you start breeding other colors. This learning with Standards also tends to weed out the breeders who are doing it for the money too. I'm sure tons of people will hit this thread, but guess it comes down to maturity, and willingness to learn before doing. I personally do not agree with people just starting with violet or sapphire, because there is so much more to breeding than making more animals. This is going to be a highly charged argument that's for sure. What else do you guys think?? - Jessica

 

[Sheri]

Thank you Jessica. I really appreciate the replies I have gotten. Should this have gone into Chinnie Debate? LOL I have to stay out of those. I will take all that has been and will be said to thought before I make any decision as to what I will do.

 

[corneliuschins]

Sheri, your best bet is to find someone close that already knows the game who can help you make the decision on whether your chin should or would be good to breed. If a show comes near you, I would definitely go to talk with people there. The problem with breeding violets isn't that your chins would suffer any, as breeding animals is easy, it is that your chins offspring might not be as healthy as they could be. So, the horror stories aren't really horror, just cautionary maybe. Breeding is easy, it's taking the time to find two animals who complement eachother well enough to pair together that is the hard part. That's why starting with standards is always the best in my opinion. There are so many things that you need to take into consideration when learning how to pair chins, that color should come after all of the rest. As in, learning the drawbacks and strengths of standards could take many people lots of time to understand. Once you understand the differences in color, fur strength, fur density is when you should add in other chin colors like whites, ebonies....... I wish you luck in your decision, but also wish that you find someone to mentor you because most of us who've been here done that don't mind helping others "do the right thing". They can then help you make a decision as to what to do with your chinny. It's a hard decision to make that's for sure. I also wanted to add that if you only have one or two animals and you decide to breed, you have to be prepared for the possibility of losing one of those two. Not that it stings any less. You do have to get back to your routine quickly when you've got a number of other chins who need you too. Good luck, and no matter where you put this type of thing, it's a good question to be asking. - Jessica

 

[Sheri]

Thank you Jessica. I do have a couple mentors working with me. The chinnie in question got a first at the show I got him at. He just wasn't one I picked but one that was "gifted" to me by a breeder there who I had bought a couple other chins from. I don't know what breeding him to a standard would do as he is a "silver mosaic". Parents are ST V/C and a White V/C. Maybe a st v/c is the way to go?

 

[Classic Chinchillas]

Personally I would never start breeding violets by using a mosaic. If you want to breed violets find some awesome stds, std vc, and violets. A drawback to working with violets is that like any recessive, to improve (if that's what you are going for) you need more chinchillas. If that is THE mutation you want to concentrate on then go for it, but I wouldn't just add it because you happen to have a vc around.

I think I said this the other day on here, but in terms of improvement, stds are the easiest to breed, then the dominant mutations, and then the recessives so it is recommended that newer breeders start with stds but you should also breed what you like, if your passion is violets then breed violets.

 

[tunes]

Breeding violets is as easy as breeding other chins. Producing healthy chins who live a long full life is a different subject. The reason that there are horror stories about breeding violets is because violet is a recessive gene. Recessive genes are notoriously "less healthy" than other genes.

If a show comes near you, I would definitely go to talk with people there. The problem with breeding violets isn't that your chins would suffer any, as breeding animals is easy, it is that your chins offspring might not be as healthy as they could be.

Where does this information come from please? I have had two violet kits die. Other than that, I haven't had any die out of a violet/standard/vc pairing, a white violet/violet pairing, a violet/violet pairing, or any combination of violets really. They are not hard to breed, the offspring are not less healthy.

The main reason people try and discourage you from starting out with violets is that most people who want to are onesie twosie chin owners. In order to have a strong violet line (and not in terms of health, but in terms of quality) you need to have many animals to work with, including as mentioned above, very good quality standards and standard/vc. There are many breeders, including on here, who breed violet just to breed violet. Throw two violet wraps together (yuck) and so on, creating smaller, wedgier, weak furred animals. Why bother to breed at all? If you're not going to try and make a better chin, then just keep pets.

 

[Riven]

I agree with Peggy, violets don't have any more health problems than any other color when bred responsibly. I think the only thing is that there are more lesser quality violets available, quality, not health. Nice violets are expensive, and most people don't want to pay for them.

Recessive genes are notoriously "less healthy" than other genes. This is the reason people say always breed violet to standard, or standard v/c.

What?! I deal with recessives and think this is nothing but a bunch of smoke being blown, and I don't think in the ear either.

If you want to breed your boy, bred your boy. Just do it right. Have him looked at by someone who knows, if you can more than one, or take him to a show. If he's nice enough then find a nice female for him. I would personally use a std v/c carrier female for QUALITY purposes, not "bad health" excuses. Spend money on your animals ( for quality and health ) and you'll get what you pay for when you get nice kits.

I know a lot of people say that you should start breeding with standards, and the only reason I agree with this is if you're keeping the kits to bring back into your own herd. If you're going to only keep at any time a couple pairs, or even ten chins in breeding, you'll sell most of your offspring, breed what you WANT, just be good at it. The point of breeding is to do it for the love of it doing it and the love of a quality animal, no matter what color.

So I say, make sure he's a nice enough male to breed, find a nice female ( I'd go with a std v/c ) and pair them up if that's what you want.

 

[RMC]

Recessive mutaions by there very nature are more likely to have other recessive's Both good and bad be expressed in the phenotype then the general population as a whole.
You can't outcross to improvements standards every generation as you can with a dominant mutation. also very rarely do you have a single gene mutate . Usually you have a series or group of genes mutate. Just as you don't have individual genes sort independantly in offspring very often they are linked to other genes and have a tendancy to sort in groups rather then independantly.
Then when you add the fact that most recessive mutations don't first appear in the best quality animals to begin with. It is much more difficult and takes more generations to make the same improvements as it would in a dominant mutation.
Then you add in the fact that all violets are the product of 29 animals that Sullivan recieved from Rhodesia, and it is unclear what and how closely related the original animals where to each other.
Recessives are more difficult to work with and have a tendancy to be weaker animals overall.
Don't get me wrong I have numerious recessive genotypes ,including violets in my herd,
And I love working with and improving them .
But I have also accepted the fact that they are going to me more difficult to work with and harder to improve then a dominant mutation. But the accomplishments of improving them is well worth the extra effort in my opinion.
Just go into them with open eyes, and expect they will be more difficult to improve and all will be fine.

 

[Sheri]

Thank you all. You have really given me food for thought. Until I get him to the next show and have him granded he will stay my pest. He has a great life here whether he breeds or not. Now if he would just quit thinking he is the only chin and I am his woman.

Luke when you gonna put up a web site for info?????? LOL TY