Undesirable traits in Mutations.

[Diva Chins]

Well, I've been thinking on this for a while. I want to know what traits are undesirable in each mutation. For example, I know that a red tint is undesirable in ebonies, dirty eb belly is frowned on in standards, and I also know that whites are notorious for thin fur and was just told recently that whites tend to have a yellowish tint to their fur that's undesirable. I'm not really wanting to know much about recessives like sapphire and violets, but I do know that they still need a relatively good amount of work and have a few breeders dedicated to bringing them up to the same par as standards. My main interest is in things like beiges, tans, brown velvets, pink whites, white ebs, white mosaics, but mainly brown velvets, white mosaics, white ebs, pink whites and black velvets (I have a passion for whites and I'd love to work with them in the future).

Links, if there are any that pertain to the question above, would be appreciated as well. I look forward to seeing all of your highly educated replies. Thanks.

 

[Show-MeChins]

what was said at the nationals this year, like you were talking about the yellowish tint in the whites.... The Mosaics (eb or not) are suppose to be a crisp bright bight like the belly of a std. and a PW is more of that creamy white because of the beige in there
Whites tend to have softer fur, and lack fur strenght. THUS laying the fur down in spots.

beige, tan, eb, Brown velvets and black velvets all tend to oxidize to the orangey-rust colored tips.

and my advice to you is that in your pairings or beige to BV .. if thbey arent the color your going for OR if you get BV out of that pairing,... i PERSONALLY would sell them off and not put them back into my herd... get too many mutes in there, your animals fur start going down hill pretty fast.

hope this might help a bit

 

[Diva Chins]

and my advice to you is that in your pairings or beige to BV .. if thbey arent the color your going for OR if you get BV out of that pairing,... i PERSONALLY would sell them off and not put them back into my herd... get too many mutes in there, your animals fur start going down hill pretty fast.

Oh I know, I've been thinking about that a lot. I myself would really never want to try and breed for something like a pink white or a brown velvet because I just don't think I'd be ready to pair two mutes together, I know that extensively pairing mute to mute can decrease the quality of kits over time. I know the importance of standards in a herd very much so. Thanks for your reply, it did make a lot of sense.

 

[Silverrose]

Whether it be standard or mutation, there are pretty basic things that are undesired in all animals. The color should be bright and clear, with a bluish hue and no sign of off-color cast, i.e. red, yellow, whatever. Any mutation that should have a white tummy should have a clear, bright white tummy; no muddy/dirty bellies. Like show-me said, as the animals get older, the fur will oxidize, giving beiges tips a rusty color and orangey cast, and blacks/ebonies a reddish tint.

What you are asking is more of the common problems found per mutation. I will just add to your list a common problem with black/brown velvets. You want strong veiling all along the body, with no breaks in veiling. Often, weak veiling is found around the ears and neck, creating an undesired "halo" effect.

 

[Diva Chins]

What you are asking is more of the common problems found per mutation. I will just add to your list a common problem with black/brown velvets. You want strong veiling all along the body, with no breaks in veiling. Often, weak veiling is found around the ears and neck, creating an undesired "halo" effect.

Thanks Therese, that's exactly what I was asking. I just read today about some people using some kind of blue dust to cheat at shows and with that tid bit it makes sense.

 

[oxchincerelyxo]

it can also depend on the ones you are breeding. It has a lot to do with the right pairings...making sure what one chin lacks the other one holds stronger...For instance (just an example

If I were going to breed any of my chins-I'd use Stolie who has a nice thick coat even if he is a bit smaller with Heiney who is a big girl...taking the weakness of a trait and trying to pull it out using a chin that off sets it. :thumbsup:

 

[MegFarris]

Mutes have the same issues that standards have. They just tend to be more abundant than the weaknesses in standards. As said before, blue is the correct tint for all of the mutes. Red and Yellow is bad.

I did want to add to your list that sapphires tend to be on the smaller side and can also have weak fur.

 

[Olallie]

I want to add that a slow growing chinchilla is un desirable too, because they are at their prime at 1yr. If the chin is too small at one year, the coat will just go down hill as it gets older.

Please correct me if im wrong! But that was the impression I got from the Show I attended with Rosco!

 

[Laurie]

I just want to pipe in and say that a red chin is not undesirable to me at all! In fact I can't wait for the day someone can come up with a nice red chin! I'll be standing in line--okay I'll probably be the only one in line, but red guinea pigs are gorgeous and I can't believe no one can come up with the color on chins!

 

[Chinniechantel]

I just want to pipe in and say that a red chin is not undesirable to me at all! In fact I can't wait for the day someone can come up with a nice red chin! I'll be standing in line--okay I'll probably be the only one in line, but red guinea pigs are gorgeous and I can't believe no one can come up with the color on chins!

Sheesh Laurie, a little hard to please are we? :neener: Purple, blue, white, black, brown, not good enough, now she wants a RED one! How about that cookie and cream chin, or the white and pink!

 

[Anne-Lise]

Correcte me if I'm wrong here, but thes chins with 'undesirable' traits could be a great tool to work with some other mutations. For example, a gray or beige with a dirty belly would be a great pairing with an ebony.

 

[Megan]

You know, some people used to believe this. However, as people are understanding ebonies more and more... I think people are now starting to see that you should STILL use the quality standards with your ebonies. My ebs are actually with the same standards I'd use in my standard breeding program. (My ebs are female, and almost every one of my males has atleast one standard in the run as well). PLease someone correct me if i'm wrong (Luke? Jeff?), but I remember reading there is a difference between a dirty "belly" and an eb... Sometimes it can be the fault of ebony in there, sometimes bad genetics(Veiling extending too far, etc).

Like I said, I remember READING this, but we all know everything you read may not be true..so hoping luke/jeff who really knows their genetics can correct me LOL

 

[Veronica]

To determine coat quality and color, lighting is important. My chins look beautiful in my chin room, but they'd probably look completely different under show lights.

 

[chinchildren]

other things to breed away from are lack of density and strength of fur as well as weakness in the neck and shoulder area. again, i would not specify by mutation per se even though some mutes are more prone to some weaknesses.

 

[Anne-Lise]

I get what you say Megan, I'd love to read the complete article you're talking about, if you come across it again!

 

[RMC]

In my opinion many of the undesireable traits associated with mutations aren't linked directly with the mutation itself. But with the tendancy of those breeding to accept faults in mutes that they wouldn't accept in standards.
The exception to this is with the recessive dilute mutations. You will always have a tendancy for weaker fur with them then you would if you had the exact same genotype with the exception of the mutant gene(s).
You will also have to be very carefull in selecting what violets go into breeding or you will end up with the yellow/offcolor. that will always be linked with the violet mutation as well.

 

[Classic Chinchillas]

Megan I think the dirty belly was having to do with over extending of veiling but I don't work with ebony so?

Tiffany, that sure is a long list of main interests, lol! If you are starting to breed you should pick just one mutation or possibly two but I would suggest starting with one and focus on that. I have been told that of the mutations, whites are the easiest to breed. It is a lot easier to see off color in whites than it is in some of the other mutations. If you like whites start with just mosaics, then maybe add beige or ebony later. Oh and don't skimp of quality, buy the best chinchillas you can find, they might be a little more expensive it'll pay off in the long run plus it's always nice to hear customers tell you your chins are the prettiest they've seen when you know they have already been to several other breeders.

 

[chinchildren]

now you got my attention: off color is not something i associate w/violets (though i have seen some of my violets that are not as clear as some of the others but not to the degree that a sanctioned judge would call them off color).

i understand what you are saying but while i have produced violets or violet hybrids with good fur density it is true that my expectation is not the same as from my standards that i put in with them. i am yet to see a violet that is as densly fured as the best standards i have seen.

In my opinion many of the undesireable traits associated with mutations aren't linked directly with the mutation itself. But with the tendancy of those breeding to accept faults in mutes that they wouldn't accept in standards.
The exception to this is with the recessive dilute mutations. You will always have a tendancy for weaker fur with them then you would if you had the exact same genotype with the exception of the mutant gene(s).
You will also have to be very carefull in selecting what violets go into breeding or you will end up with the yellow/offcolor. that will always be linked with the violet mutation as well.

 

[RMC]

IMHO it isn't a density(#of hairs in a given area) issue that is unseperable from the dilute mutations ,it is a fur strength issue.

 

[TillyChinchilla]

The creamy color that may come along with some pink whites - is that noted or are they marked down due to it? I would assume there is leeway there due to the beige.

I've firsthand seen some pretty bad oxidation (visible in a low light barn, not under show light), very icky on beiges and beige hybrids.