Question for people with two or more dogs...

[greychins]

So... I have my dog, Kailey, and I thought she'd do well with a playmate, so I was given another medium sized dog. Alone, both dogs are the most well-behaved, respective, non-destructive/non-knocking-things-over dogs. By themselves, they're both quiet and medium-energy level.

The problem comes when they're put together. Now, I don't expect a home with two dogs to be silent, by any means. But this just seems ridiculous! Every day I take them both out on walks, throw the ball numerous times for them, and so on... yet the ENTIRE time they're out of their crates, they act like tasmanian devils that are high on speed. They tear around the house... I mean I know they're playing, but its constant barking, growling, whining, you name it.

If I try to give either dog individual attention...well let me start by saying the only way this can be done is if the other dog is crated, cause when they're together, neither one listens to a word I say. So assuming one is crated and I'm giving individual attention to the other, the crated dog whines and carries on. Same with if I take one dog out for a walk and leave the other in the house - I'm told the one left home will whine and whine and whine and bark until I come back.

That and they seem to have gotten into a pissing contest in the living room. My dog Kailey has never acted out. I apparently made her mad one day (neither was listening and I was really yelling at them, I know, I know, but I was mad), she peed (she is totally housetrained). Well, of course the other dog later peed in the same spot, and after that was cleaned, somehow Kailey found the spot again and had to cover up the pee of the other dog. Now, I'm USING nature's miracle and all those cleaners meant to cover up and get rid of the enzymes (along with vinegar) so they don't pee in one spot (and both are completely housetrained, so this is NOT them having accidents), but now I have two dogs acting out, making enormous amounts of noise and destroying things (because in their tearing around the house, they are knocking everything over), and just not calm.

I guess my thing is that I've gone to people's houses and seen them have 2+ dogs and the dogs are just quietly sitting around. They're not tearing through the house and making all sorts of noise like these two. I feel between 2 walks per day and playing fetch for about an hour, I guess I think they should be more worn out than they are, but they have endless energy...

I'm at the point I'm considering re-homing the second dog. The problem, I have come to realize, is actually my first dog, in that she'll never let the other dog even lay down, she keeps prodding to play play play. But I'm not getting rid of Kailey.

Anyway, sorry for the book. I guess my question is this: I'm at my wits end. The dogs need to calm down, at least somewhat, or the new one has to go. I can't have endless barking/whining/etc, besides the fact that neither one listens to me when they're both out together. It's driving me nuts, and I need a little more calm and complacency and quiet than this. Any suggestions? And btw I don't have the kind of money necessary for a behaviorist to work with either dog, I understand it is possible I'm just not meant to have two dogs, and now after having lived with two for a bit, I'd be ok with that if that was what it came to.

So... thoughts?

 

[Megan]

Have you completed basic obedience with either of the dogs? That is a great place to start, and will get your dogs to respect you. Some people have set rules "no playing in the house" and the dogs know this. Others allow them to play in the house.

I think the best point to start would be basic obedience, to get your dogs to listen to you ALL the time, even when together. Gavin has completed his basic obedience last year and he can be in mid play, and listen to a command I give him.

Our dogs ARE allowed to play in the house, and do so fairly loud. However, when its time to stop a stern "OK, stop" gets them to calm back down.

Obediance classes aren't THAT expensive, and can really make an "ok" or "good" dog turn into a GREAT dog, who is enjoyable to be around. I honestly feel this should be a must do for every dog owner..It really makes a huge difference with a good trainer.

I think the main thing is you have not created boundaries in the home, that the dogs understand. If you are dead set against going to classes/really can't afford it--consider getting one of the basic vidoes and attempting to do it yourself. With your dogs knowing there are limitations, I really think it may make a huge difference.

 

[greychins]

I haven't done obedience classes with either dog, no, but Kailey knows almost all obedience commands except for heel. Without the other dog around, she listens super well, you say sit and practically before the "t" in "sit" is out her butt is on the ground. That's part of what's frustrating me is she listens SO well, just not when the other's around...

ETA: before I got this dog, when I would take Kailey to other people's houses with dogs, she'd still listen to me. Like if they were both playing and I'd be like "Kailey sit" she'd sit. But with this dog around, she acts like I'm not even here...

ETA again: yet SHE's the problem. The other dog would settle down after a bit of time after they play, but Kailey just keeps poking and prodding and trying to play... I guess I think that if SHE would settle down, then they'd both be ok, cause the other dog is calmer just in general. But I don't know how to get her to settle down.

 

[alli713]

How old are the dogs? I'm assuming still puppies right? Did you go to people's houses when they have puppies? There's going to be much more playing and running around when there's two puppies involved.
And how long are your walks? It sounds like they're not long enough to wear them out mentally.
Another option would be to take them to a dog park or enclosed area and just let them run until they're tired. When Lila was a littler I took her to the dog park because she just had so much energy that I couldn't keep up. And being able to run to her heart's content tired her out. She would come back home and sleep when otherwise she would be tearing around the house barking at me.

I do agree with the obedience. You need to probably work with them individually to get them to respect you and listen to you. Because then putting them together, they're not going to want to listen to you when playing is more fun than stopping.

ETA: I see that you say your first dog used to listen. I'm not sure if this will help, but when I was having issues with Lila settling down during the day and not barking so much that it annoyed my neighbors, I was told to reward the behavior you want. So when she was calm she would get a treat randomly. I don't know if it helped or not, but you need to show the dog the behavior you do want and then reward them for that.
I was seriously at my wits end for a while with Lila but as she's gotten older she's gotten way better and now is the best dog I could ask for, it's just getting to that point is the tough part and you need to find what works for you.

 

[greychins]

Kailey's 1 and the new dog's 2. My friends that own dogs, most of the dogs are in the 1-3 yr old range, so some older, some not, but I kid you not, she would listen at everyone else's house, but now that the new dog is here at this house, Kailey's like "ya right."

That does make sense about them not wanting to listen when playing's more fun than stopping...

Unfortunately, I take classes during the day as well as some at night, so actual obedience classes are sort of out of the question. My schedule is set to change during the upcoming summer months (including my work schedule, which fluctuates week to week) so it'd be impossible for me to keep the same day/time for an obedience class, and the places around here have classes that are (for example) basic obedience, Monday at 8. Well, this Monday at 8 I'm free, but next Monday I work, and I dunno bout the week after that, same with just about every day of the week. I AM home a decent amount of the time, but I have no actual control over what days I'll be home in any given week because of work. So I can never plan to do something that meets the same day/time every week, cause I'm bound to miss more than I attend.

I was really hoping for a suggestion that is something that can be done at home, on my schedule. Like I said, I've got Kailey listening to me fine by herself, but I really don't know what to do to strengthen that, because she listens perfectly when the other dog isn't here. (I'm not knocking the suggestion, don't get me wrong, but) I'm not sure how actual obedience class would help in this situation. They both know almost all of the commands, and they both listen perfectly fine... just not when the other is there. I guess I just don't see the difference between practicing sit/down/stay at home versus doing it during an obedience class...

The walks are 30 minutes apiece. Since they're both psychotic, I can only take one out at a time, so that's an hour. Then, they both get (together) maybe 45-60 minutes of ball-throwing. Maybe this doesn't seem like a ton to some people, but that's 2 hours out of my day and I do go to school full time and have a job, so I can't devote 6 hours of my life daily to the dogs (and really, I don't know anyone who can...). And when we're done with the ball-throwing, they are panting walking in and all that, like they seem tired, but then they'll lay down for about a half hour and be raring to go again....

I almost think the dog park would have the same effect - cause when we are done playing fetch, they seem good and tired and worn out. I mean they really do, they come in and plop down and I'm like "good I wore them out".... but then they nap and they're up and running again.... gotta ask the dog food makers what they put in that food, I need this kinda energy for myself...

 

[Megan]

What breeds are they? I want to say Kailey is a sheltie..they are more of a ''working breed'' so she may need a bit longer then a 30 minute walk and 45 minutes of ball throwing.. Do you have a backyard?

 

[greychins]

Kailey's a sheltie and the other one's a basenji mix. I do not have a backyard, I just have a tiiiiny little balcony out back. If I had a backyard, I would leave them out and let them run out there, but unfortunately I can't do that.

And I do understand she's a working breed, but I guess what gets me is that when I JUST had Kailey, she'd be FINE with some ball playing and a walk. She would sleep alot when it was just me and her. Until I got this new one, Kailey was NEVER this hyper or this psychotic. I figured two dogs would be more work, but I figured it'd be about double the time (another walk for the second dog, double the playtime), not that I'd have to quadruple all the walks and playtimes...

ETA: now that I think about it, I did somewhat think that having another dog would actually wear out Kailey QUICKER. Cause when I used to take her outside by myself, without any other dogs, she would run for a bit of time and then lay down and she'd be done. Or we'd play ball and she'd decide enough and go lay down. And I guess I thought that if she was running WITH another dog and playing, she'd be worn out quicker, NOT that she'd have MORE energy and be driving me nuts (which she never used to). I mean this seems a logical thought pattern to me, no?

 

[alli713]

Ahh both dogs that are going to need quite a bit of work. Basenjis are high energy dogs.
Sure, the total of the hour walking the dogs seems like a lot to you, but it's only 30 minutes per dog. I would work on being able to walk them both together. Do you use any harnesses or gentle leaders while walking? I use a gentle leader with Lila because if I don't she pulls and is just hard to keep control of.
I think that you need to set some boundaries. If they can't play nicely in the house, you need to stop the activity before it gets too bad. If they are getting too riled up, take them and separate them, put them each in a separate kennel until they've calmed down. Then let them out again. If it gets bad again, do the same thing separate them etc. etc. You need to show them what is and isn't acceptable in the house. If some playing is okay they need to know when to stop and that when you say to stop that's what you mean.

Maybe you can make up some fun games to give them something to do. When Lila was little I would take pieces of kibble and hide them and we made a game out of it. So she would have to work to find the treat. Start out small by putting the treat/food in plain sight and say something like "Go find it!" or something to show what you want. Then slowly get harder so that they have to work and use their brain to find the treats. This will give them something to do. Or Lila loved her Tug-A-Jug. I put her food in it and she has to work to get the food out. Stimulating a dogs brain will keep them from getting bored and acting crazy to get rid of their energy.

 

[greychins]

I do use a harness with Kailey because she yanks. The reason (so far) I have only once taken them out on a walk together though is because they are the type to get tangled. Again, amazingly enough, they're fine walking with me individually, but leash or not, they both still want to play while walking (I have two 6-ft leashes) and so while I'm trying to walk, they're both rearing up and playing and trying to chase each other... hence, a walk with both dogs has happened all of once.

I like the idea of taking them out and then putting them back when they don't behave. I will try that today. Unfortunately, I get the feeling that they're going to spend the majority of their time in the crate unless this somehow just clicks for them. I mean I'm not trying to be mean to them or anything, but I mean the second they come out they're at each other pawing and playing. There is no "nice playing time" before it gets nuts, they get out and its full-blown nuts within seconds. And when I put them back, I mean they just sit down in their crates and they're fine, like RIGHT away. I'll try this though and hopefully they'll get the idea... I'm just not sure they're going to understand why they're going back in their crates when they've only been out for 20 seconds...

I like the idea of hiding the kibble....

Well, regarding the toys and games, I think I do have that tug a jug, if that's the thing with the rope sort of inside the bottle thing and they have to pull it to get the rope out... and see, Kailey will play with all her toys regularly... but since the other dog's been here, the pile of toys and chews has not been touched. Kailey LOVES to play tug of war with me with the rope... so I tried to get her to do one end and the other dog on the other end... ya that didn't work... but now, with the other dog here, she doesn't even care to play tug of war with me.... like the toys are just "eh" to her now that there's another living breathing dog, I guess...

I even got out some new toys, and she has no interest in those....

 

[alli713]

So how long have you had the second dog?

 

[Mander]

Since you mentioned that the new dog will settle after playing, I would suggest putting a leash on Kailey in the house and when she starts bugging him or trying to play, take her leash and make her lay down while giving her a command to settle. If she isnt listening to you when he is around you need to make her do what you are telling her, other wise she will quickly learn that what you say doesnt matter and shelties are quick to take advantage if you show weakness. When they are playing if you say come and she doesnt you go to where she is and bring her to where you were and say "Come" and then praise. Same goes for the new dog if he begins to entice play when you dont want them running around. You can also try giving them each a kong stuffed with yummy treats and putting them on seperate sides of the room and again giving them the settle command. This can take alot of time and patience on your side. Keep in mind that there is nothing wrong with crate time. If you cant put them both in their crates and give them a bone or something to keep them busy and give them a settle command they will start to learn that good things come to them when they are calm.

Because you have two very active working dogs you need to keep not only their bodies active but their minds as well. The best way to mentally tire a dog is training. work on teaching new tricks or teaching Kaily how to heel. You can do this at home to start and then work up to distractions.

At 1 Kailey is still very much a puppy and at two you are in the rebelious adolecent stage which makes for alot of loud and rough playing. They will calm down eventually trust me. I have two Border Collies that are 3 and 4 and at times they can be a handfull, but with practice and patience there is no reasone they shouldnt be able to live happily together without driving you crazy.

Feel free to email me if you have more questions as I am a certified dog trainer in Canada.

 

[Riven]

The problem is not the dogs, the problem is you. Well not you necessarily, but your actions. They aren't listening to you because you are not the leader of their pack.

When alone with either dog, YOU become the companion and friend, so they listen to you because they think you're playing and want the attention. When they have a different friend they don't need you for this.

You need to become the pack leader. The main thing that the pack leader controls is the food, so start there.

How do you feed? I'm going to guess like many you feed either in their crates, or dump a big bowl of food for them to share, possibly while be surrounded like a bunch of sharks and jumped on.

That needs to stop, you need to make that your food. Put the food in a dish in the middle of the floor, be prepared with a flyswatter, empty wrapping paper tube, or other "potentially scary object". You do not hit the dog at any time, you simply protect your food. Let them know the food is there, but do not let them have any of it. Stand by it and swat the ground, table, chair, anything to make noise. You can tell them "mine" if you want, but don't need to. It's just human nature to try to bark out commands, and can be used in later training.

They do not get the food until you give the okay. This is NOT walking away from the bowl, it is a key word such as "eat" or "yours" for all they care it can be "jump". Then let them eat watching them, so they know you're ALLOWING them to eat.

Continue this until you can sit on the couch and they won't touch it until you tell them they can, eventually you should be able to leave the room and come back and they will not touch it.

This requires a feeding schedule! Free feeding does not allow this for obvious reasons.

Once they understand what "mine" is you can work on other things that are "mine" like maybe a room, a bed, a chair, a couch, a toy that they won't give to you.

I also use the 'out' command. The dogs have specified areas, they can not be in the kitchen while I cook or we eat. They need to be "out". Again maintain your position as the boss and use your "scary thing" to be scary, I've always found smacking anything on a counter is very effective.

Even the most obedient dogs will not listen to someone they don't respect or consider a leader. My dogs usually do not respect my husband because he does not establish himself as a leader. Cami will sit, lay, stay, come, go, heal, balance a treat on her nose and more, but she will not do it for him unless he has a treat. To establish your position you do not use treats. Lead dogs do not give treats to other dogs in the pack, they give them privileges, such as eating. Treats are okay, but they do not earn your position.

Good luck, and by the way, I have four dogs in the house, from 120#'s to 5#'s, and when mom says stop, they all stop.

 

[Ash]

Another question. Are both dogs fixed? That can play a large factor, as well.

Riven's suggestion is good, too.

Also, do you have a dog park anywhere that you could get them to after they start responding to you again? Since you don't have a backyard, somewhere they can really run their energy off is really needed.

 

[greychins]

I've only had the second dog for about 2 weeks now, so I dunno, maybe he's still settling in? Kailey's fixed, but he isn't, and I need to set that appointment...

Mander, I like those suggestions, I'll have to try that....

I free feed. Kailey's never over-eaten, the vet says she's a healthy weight, and as I'm not home at the same time each day, it's easier for me to leave the food out and let her pick at it when she wants than to have a set food time.

I have attempted to set a feeding schedule. I'm sorry, it can't be done. I tried, I really did. The problem comes in that I usually have class at 8:30, so I figured I'd feed at 7 am. Well, then work would schedule me 6 am, so I'd either have to feed earlier, or 9 hours later. So I figured maybe 6 am for feeding. Then work schedules me 12 pm-8 am (night shift) and again feeding is messed up. Same with if I try to feed at night. Some nights I'm home all night, other nights I have class til 10, other nights I work til midnight. The only time I am usually home is like 3 am, and I'm not gonna set a feeding time at 3 am. I believe that what you say would help - with the feeding schedule and all that...but with only me living here, and with my schedule changing every week, it's just not possible for me to set a feeding schedule....I actually am home a lot, despite how this sounds, it's just that I'm home different hours of the day for different days, and not a whole week goes by where I have the same hours every day.

On that note though, in the odd event I get the law clerk job I interviewed for, I would totally be able to set a feeding schedule. But that's yet to be seen...

Riven, is there any other way other than the feeding schedule to assert the pack leader status? I have Ceasar Milan's "be the pack leader" book - havent read it yet (that's probably obvious), but the food thing just can't work here, there is not a single time that I'm home 7 days a week to feed at the same time...

I have nowhere that they could daily go to run energy off. There is a "dog park" *laughs* at the complex where I live. It's the size of a large closet, so they can't even really stretch out in there, it's mostly (I guess) for people to take their dogs to go potty. One of my friends has 11 acres, but they live 45 minutes away. I generally take Kailey there once a week, but every day is out of the question. I just don't have that much time.

 

[equus_peduus]

Watch the new dog to make sure he doesn't gain weight... you may not be able to free feed in the long run. If you can't do a schedule, you might be able to control other desired resources - toys, extra-tasty treats, etc.?

As for the walks thing... I have a friend with two dogs. She has taught her dogs to heel - one on each side. They will do this on or off leash. She usually walks them on a trail that isn't anywhere near any traffic, so mostly they get to wander around off leash - but they are both about 98% on their recall (come when called), and will heel on command, so if another dog is coming along, or something else comes up, she knows they will come back to her and be easily controlled. They can both heel on either side if alone, but when both dogs are present, the black dog typically heels on the left and the white on the right. No worries about getting leashes tangled up or anything, even when both are on leash. And when on-leash - they are both heeling, they are not allowed to sniff or explore - no leash tangling (so even though they have about 6 foot leashes, they are kept at the owner's side). Black dog is about a 6 year old cattle dog mix, the white dog is a 1-2 year old pit bull - both have plenty of energy! In the house, they both have "go lay down" commands - Black dog has a bed she goes to, white dog has a crate (because she is more likely to get up and start playing again). And it doesn't matter how rambunctious they are, the command gets given, they go lay down. Did I mention that the complication to all this is that white dog is deaf? (she has a vibrating remote control collar for off-leash recall).

It probably helped that my friend worked at a hunting training kennel for a few years, and that she had the black dog for 4-5 years before getting white dog (so black dog's commands were well-reinforced). But I bring this up as illustration that it can be done...

And the nature's miracle type things aren't instant - my understanding is that it can take a day or two for full effect, so make the pee-contest spot inaccessible while it's curing.

 

[Riven]

Dogs don't read clocks. If I ever write a book I think I'm going to name it that...

Times to dogs are like this "Mom is up" , " Mom is home" "Mom is cooking", they base their schedule off of things that you do, so if doesn't need to be at the exact same time every day, but at least in that range just to help them know when they'll need to go out, not be hungry etc.

You can feed so that they have enough for a whole day, just do this when you give it. It doesn't have to be just what they eat in that time, etc. You can do the same thing with treats or any other "edible" object that is desirable to help work on that affect too!

I would also do a search to see if there is a dog park in the community, maybe as the local vet or shelter, there might be one closer than you realize!

And good job and wanting to take control, it's easier to let the dogs take the reins!

 

[greychins]

Oh ok, that makes sense, I guess for some reason I thought that it would have to be the same time every day for the feeding schedule. Around the same time, within a few hours, I could probably manage to do.

Ok well that's good...I was thinking I was just going to be trying to feed them the amount they'd eat then, and I know at least for Kailey, part of the reason I normally free feed is because she just sort of picks at the food all hours of the day... course I guess maybe that'd be a little different if I actually took it away and tried, like what you said Nicole, about not letting them have the food til I say...

Alright well now that I know that, I'm gonna start trying this with the food/treats and such....

I searched online for dog parks, and the closest one is the Humane Society's dog park... and it's 30 minutes away. Most of the dog parks are like in Carmel, and Fishers, and the rich areas. And of course they want spayed/neutered dogs so I can't take them yet, at least not until I get the new one neutered...and while he is utd on shots (until June), of course I don't have any record of that or any rabies tag, so I imagine I'll go get all that done at the same time as the neuter if I can.... Unfortunately there's not one that's like just around the corner... I mean the half hour away wouldnt be so bad, but since Kailey requires her medication so I don't have my car (or her crate in my car) covered in dog puke, it's not like I can be like "ok we're going", it's more like ok lemme give her a pill and set the timer for an hour and a half and then we're going. Unfortunately. But I'm gonna ask some people about the park and see what they think and if it's worth it, and then once the new one's neutered, we'll see....

Haha yes I want control! I hate chaos, there needs to be a boss in the house here, and it better be me....

 

[Megan]

Actually, I think dogs do know some sort of a "schedule" time. Our dogs get fed at 7am and 2pm. Venus, my greyhound has been fed like that for the last 9 years. She was fed early as well at the track..and when we got her thats the time I was up for school, so feeding is easy. You bet every morning at(or very close to) 7am she is barking at the steps tob e let out to potty, and to be fed.

When 2:00 rolls around (Doesn't matter what we are doing--eating, cooking, just sitting around) the dogs start hoarding around you, whining etc.. They know its when they normally get fed.

 

[greychins]

Well I'm sure it would be helpful if I COULD feed at a scheduled time, but as I can't....

Megan.... the difference I see here is that I imagine you are always home at 7 and 2, right? Like you leave every morning at 8 and come home at 1 (for argument's sake), so it's easier for you to do it this way... and if I was home at the same time everyday, I would do the schedule. Believe me, not doing a schedule made me have a heck of a time in potty training (but she IS potty trained FINALLY!!!!)

I imagine if I just do it like they get fed when I get home (which, I'm usually home at some point between like 2-5 each day) they'll figure out that they get fed when mommy gets home.... I hope...

 

[Riven]

If you normally feed at say 9 in the morning and don't feed until 12, they will know. But most dogs don't expect to be feed at exactly the same time everyday, they usually run off our schedules. Just like us if we are used to eating at this time, and don't eat until this time then we'll be hungry. If you feed enough for almost all day ( for dogs that free feed) then if it's not exactly on time you're usually okay. Even if you just refill, you can do this as well, because they say OH NEW FOOD!

I'm sure that Megan's dogs, being on a twice daily schedule are using getting portioned rations. Say the recommended amount is 2 cups, then she will feed 1 cup twice a day. They probably eat all of this when they are feed.

Anytime you free feed you should watch for obesity in your pets, if you don't have that then you normally don't have any problems with "over" feeding other than possibly more poo!

Treats are a good option to start gaining respect if the food schedule is not viable for you! If the schedule would vary any more than a couple hours normally, you may want to consider that at well, and also when refilling bowls.