Pink White/TOV Pink White/TOV Tan White

[Chris Anderson]

Hi Everyone,

I wanted to see if anyone has any input on differentiating a pink white, a TOV Pink White, and a TOV Tan White from each other. I have a female chin that I'm having difficulty determining the genetics of. The dam was a pink white and the sire was a light ebony TOV. This female is white with pink ears, etc., but also shows a faint beige masking (which has become less evident as she's developed), and an evident beige tail base. I've never produced a pink white that showed beige like this, but have heard it is possible. I'm not sure, however, if there is really any way for me to tell if she is just a pink white, a TOV pink white, or a TOV tan white. Anyone have any insights? I've attached a couple bad photos I took from my iPhone of her to hear thoughts.

Thanks,

Chris

 

[Pookinaround]

Here is a pic of Lyric for comparison. She is a TOV Pink White. Note the darker face and paws. Sometimes if it isn't blatantly shown with these features it can be hard to tell. There was another recent thread about TOV whites you may want to check out. I think it was under the "Chin Chat" section...

 

[greychins]

She looks like a regular pink white to me. Pink whites can have beige in their coats, they're not always predominantly white. I have a pink white here who actually looks almost like a badly veiled beige upon first glance, due to large patches of beige around her face/back, but she is definitely a pink white.

For a TOV pink white, I think you'd be seeing more veiling on the face, like in the picture posted above. Yours doesn't appear to have that, so I wouldn't say there's TOV.

For her to be a tan white, she'd need to have some of that beige wrapping around to her belly. Can't see the entire thing in the pics, but if there's no tan on the belly, then she's not a tan white (but, that doesn't mean she couldn't be an eb carrier and just not be showing it).

 

[Dreamlite]

She would be considered a tan white. Any amount of ebony should be acounted for. Ebony can only throw ebony so she is either a tan or a ebony carrier. The tov is hard to tell in whites at best. The only to know is to breed her. Is there any reason these 2 chins were bred? Its not common to put that many mutes into 1 chin due to things like this.

 

[Chris Anderson]

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for all the input. My pairs have always thrown clean pink whites, so I've never had experience with beige showing through on them (although I have never crossed my ebony or TOVs with them before). I'll double check her belly for additional beige tonight when I get home, but it sounds like TOV is out, and that she should be considered a tan white (just not certain if an ebony carrier or light ebony).

Dreamlite - This animal wasn't from one of my pairings. The sire was from my bloodlines and was given to a family member who paired him with a large, good quality pink white female acquired from another breeder. This family member, however, is now preparing to go to college, and has asked me to rehome (as a pet) this one for her to reduce the number of chins she has. I'm just trying to get a better idea of what she is for my own knowledge but also so I can give her new home as much information about her as possible.

Chris

 

[Kansas City Chinchillas]

TOV veiling can be totally masked by whites. The only way to know if she is TOV is to breed her.

 

[Spoof]

I agree with her looking like a pinkwhite and white masking everything. The only way to know the degree of ebony, if any, and if she is a velvet is to breed her to a standard or beige.

Is there any reason these 2 chins were bred? Its not common to put that many mutes into 1 chin due to things like this.

It's more common than you think, most people just don't talk about it. ) My herd is based off of these genetic combinations. You can see pictures of them here. I need to update the pictures, most are over a decade old as are the descriptions.

 

[ArmyWife]

I can't help you answer any of those questions but she sure is pretty!!!

 

[Chris Anderson]

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for the additional thoughts. My posts are still being moderated so my reply above was only approved after the rest of you had posted (in case you missed it). At any rate, it sounds like there really isn't a good way to determine her genetics without breeding her and looking at the offspring. Unfortunately I won't be breeding this individual (I would classify her as pet quality), so she will remain somewhat of a mystery. She will make a nice pet for someone regardless.

Definitely appreciate the input form everyone though.

Chris

 

[Vyxxin]

As mentioned, a LOT of breeders denote ebony on the pedigree if any parent has ebony. Being that it was a LIGHT ebony, the percentage is probably very low and in carrier form.

As for the TOV, I can honestly see what could be a mask. Might be, might not...you've got a 50/50 change. No way to tell for certain.

And Spoof, I think a LOT of the reason it's kept behind closed doors is to discourage newbies from breeding crap animals. Have a good foundation in chin breeding before multi-mute crosses

 

[Spoof]

I put ebc (ebony carrier) on the cards.

And Spoof, I think a LOT of the reason it's kept behind closed doors is to discourage newbies from breeding crap animals. Have a good foundation in chin breeding before multi-mute crosses

Meh, I think it is just people don't talk about them. You wouldn't know what mine were unless you asked at a show. Many appear to be one color but are a combination of colors. You also have to know your genetics and have the correct animals to create the cross. It's a crapshoot to get Tov tan whites, best chance is 12% or so unless you're using **** beige in there. You get a lot of random unknown whites too. Shoot, I've got a **** tan something or other I haven't disproved white on. He showed as a pinkwhite at nationals at six months old. He's in with three solid colored females and had six extra dark tans. I need a few more litters to be sure he does not have white. Due to the ebony influence he "spotted in" until he was a dark cider color. When he turned a year old a few months ago his belly turned white. :/ I'm not sure what to think of that yet.

I do agree on the quality, but overall the quality has been vastly improved from even a decade ago. Mutations can compete with standards and do very well, that used to not be the case.

 

[Dreamlite]

I just don't see the point in breeding for a tov tan white. What can you use it for in a herd? Just throw in sapphire and violet and you have everything, lol. Tan whites and tov whites have there places, but with that many mutes what can you gain?

 

[Spoof]

Just throw in sapphire and violet and you have everything, lol.

Not a bad idea.... I may go there.

but with that many mutes what can you gain?

I'll start a new thread on my breeding and why I do it. I think you will be surprised.

I would like to say that it does take a fair bit of knowledge to make use of this type of mutation. On the other hand, you gain that knowledge by experimenting, success and failure. No harm no foul so long as they are healthy. )

 

[arf2184]

Why not breed Tan White or TOV Tan Whites? It just like any other mutation...if that is what you like, you start with the best animals possible and breed to improve traits.

It makes no sense to breed white blends when breeding for pelts because you'll never get enough matching pelts to be useful, but since most of us breed for pets and many pet people like unique markings, there is no reason why you shouldn't breed blends (beyond personal preference). Yes, you do have to be careful in matching mates so that you don't get the worst of each mutation in the mix, but that applies no matter what you are breeding.

It is very possibly to breed a white blends that show well. I've done it. I've been working with white blends for 10 years and so far the offspring have taken many 1st places, some 1As, 1Bs and a Grand Show Champ. They will always be a work in progress, but I'm very happy with how they've done so far.

The only 'issue' I've had at shows is with the Tan White/TOV Tan Whites. The beige in my line is very blue and a couple of my heavily marked Tan Whites have been placed with the violets** while the classifiers try to figure out where they best fit in. So far they've been put back with the whites before classification ends, but they do look different from the others. This isn't necessarily a bad thing and they're still judged on the same traits so ultimately it doesn't matter too much, but I do feel for those that have to decide which class to put these chins in.
**I have no violet or sapphire in my little herd.

Edit to Add: My avatar picture is a TOV Tan White bred by Tara who was the start of my 'white blend' line.

Back to the original post - I would sell her as a Pink White since she's going to a pet home. You can explain the genetic possibilities if the new owner is interested, but really it doesn't matter and pink white is what you know for sure.

With that said, I think she might be TOV White. White can mask TOV (no pun intended) to the point where you can't see any trace of it so don't go by the mask. I do think I see a velvet texture to the fur on her back. Some TOV lines do still have this texture that gave the Black Velvet and TOV mutations their name (though I've been seeing less and less of it which I think is a shame). Its hard to see in pics though so I may be wrong.

As said, the only way to know for sure is to breed her with a standard.

 

[Pookinaround]

I have a tan white who could be tov since her dad was a med tov tan her mother was an eb white. I plan to breed her with just a straight up med eb. What is the harm trying to see what colors, patters, etc comes of it. Part of the beauty and fun in working with whites is the uniqueness of each chin. I do feel that quality chins need to be used when doing this though because I think there is potential for some people to overlook quality in exchange for this uniqueness which I definitely do not agree with. I can see some of the backyard breeders doing this and that is the part I worry about.

 

[Chris Anderson]

Thanks for all the thoughts, everyone. Its interesting to hear everyone's experiences with pink whites combined with TOV and ebony. I also am glad to see a good number of people who think like I do with regard to creating interesting crosses (why not as long as quality animals are being used for the crosses?).

Like Alison said, it sounds like I should list her as a pink white, since she's going to to be rehomed as a pet, and then if the new owner is interested, I can tell them more about the genetic possibilities.

Thanks for the help everyone!

Chris

 

[bondiferous]

Like several have said, if there is any ebony running around in the bloodline i'd consider it a tan or ebony carrier.

Keep in mind that tan and velvet are both mutations that can take a while to reach their full potential and depth. I bet my money on her darkening as she gets older, even if only slightly.

 

[Chris Anderson]

Thanks again for the comments. Here are a couple more pictures of her.

Chris