Low Calcium Pellets/ Crude Ash in Beaphar?

This thread is a follow up to Jameson's urethral stone, we got the analysis back and the stone was calcium carbonate. I'm researching low calcium pellets, and to be honest I'm feeling a little overwhelmed looking at all the nutritional data. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I know that chinchillas generally need a high fiber lower protein diet, but I don't know exactly what I should be looking for? I know that some rabbit pellets are good for chinchillas, but I don't know if there's something in rabbit pellets that I should be avoiding? Are there any ingredients other than calcium that I should be concerned about for stone issues?

Jameson used to eat Neutrena Naturewise, but was extremely thin and bony. He's been on Tradition for over a year, and was doing great until he developed the urethral stone.

Here is the nutritional analysis for Tradition:

Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein (min) 17%
Crude Fat (min) 3%
Crude Fiber (max) 16%
Calcium (min) 1.1%
Calcium (max) 1.6%
Phosphorus (min) 0.8%
Salt (min) 0.3%
Salt (max) 0.8%
Selenium (min) 0.3 PPM
Vitamin A (min) 3,000 IU/LB
Vitamin D (min) 1,200 IU/LB
Vitamin E (min) 25.0 IU/LB

Ingredients
Forage products, processed grain by-products, plant protein products, roughage products, molasses products, sodium bentonite, animal protien products, calcium carbonate, monocalcium phosphate, dicalcium phosphate, vegetable fat, salt, choline chloride, vitamin E supplement, propionic acid (a preservative), natural terpenes, acetic acid, sorbic acid, benzoic acid, monoesters and diesters of 1, 2 propanediol, hydrated ammonium phosphate, amorphous silica, propyl benzoate, propyl acetate, butylated hydroxyanisole, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, calcium iodate, cobalt carbonate, zinc oxide, manganous oxide, copper sulfate, ethylenediamine dihydriodide, yucca schidigera extract, niacin, vitamin A supplement, vitamin D supplement, artificial flavor, sodium selenite, vitamin B12 supplement, calcium pantothenate, ascorbic acid, biotin, vitamin A acetate, folic acid, riboflavin, menadione dimethylpyrimidinol bisulfite (source of vitamin K), pyridoxine hydrochloride, thiamine mononitrate.

I wanted to look into Beaphar Chinchilla Care + to see if it would meet his needs since I already feed it to one of my chins.

Here is the analysis of the Beaphar:

Analytical constituents:
Crude Protein 20%
Crude Fiber 20.1%
Crude oils and fats 3.3%
Crude ash 5.7%
CA .79%
NA .2%
PO .57%
MG .2%
K 1.04%

Nutritional Additives:
Vit a 20.5 IU
Vit d 31.74 IU
Vit e 67.5 IU
Vit c 12.3mg
Vit K 3.8mg
Vit b1 19.2mg
Bit b2 18.9mg
Vit b6 17.8mg
Vit b12 61 ug
Niacin 74.4mg
Pantothenic acid 36mg
Biotin 618 ug
Folic acid 12.1mg
Cholin 615mg
Iodine1.7mg
Copper 15.7mg
Manganese 35.1mg
Zinc 102mg
DLMethionin 1.000mg
Antioxidants
colourants

Composition: Cereals, derivatives of vegetable origin, vegetable protein extracts, minerals, vegetables, seeds, yeasts, yucca schidigera, algae (spirulina 0.01%)

Beaphar has a crude ash component that I haven't seen on any American pellets. To my understanding crude ash is the leftover remnants of minerals once they have been incinerated. According to a dog food forum that I was reading this can include a calcium component. Does that me that the Calcium level would be higher then the listed .79%?

I used to feed Oxbow Chinchilla Deluxe, which seems to have lower calcium then the Tradition.

Oxbow:

Premium Ingredients
Alfalfa Hay = Beneficial Fiber and Protein
Soy Products = Fiber, Balanced Protein, Healthy Fat
Wheat = Ideal Carbohydrate and Energy Source
Ingredients
Alfalfa Meal, Soybean Hulls, Wheat Middlings, Soybean Meal, Soybean Oil, Salt, Lignin Sulfonate, Cane Molasses, L-Ascorbyl-2-Monophosphate (Vitamin C), Limestone, Yeast Culture (dehydrated), Vitamin E Supplement, Choline Chloride, Zinc Proteinate, Zinc Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Niacin, Copper Sulfate, Selenium Yeast, Vitamin A Supplement, Folic Acid, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Copper Proteinate, Riboflavin Supplement, Manganese Proteinate, Biotin, Manganous Oxide, Thiamine Mononitrate, Magnesium Sulfate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Sodium Selenite, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Cobalt Carbonate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Calcium Iodate

Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein (min) 18.00%
Crude Fat (min) 2.50%
Crude Fiber (min) 18.00%, max 23.00%
Moisture (max) 10.00%
Calcium (min) 0.60%, (max) 1.10%
Phosphorus (min) 0.25%
Vitamin A (min) 19,000 IU/kg
Vitamin D (min) 900 IU/kg
Vitamin E (min) 190 IU/kg
Copper (min) 30 mg/kg

Per my vet's suggestion I've also looked at the Oxbow Bunny Basics Adult Rabbit food which is a Timothy Pellet. While it's lower in Calcium I'm not sure if it would meet a chinchilla's nutritional needs?

Oxbow Bunny Basics Adult Rabbit:

Premium Ingredients
Timothy Hay = Essential Fiber
Soy Products = Fiber, Balanced Protein, Healthy Fat
Wheat = Ideal Carbohydrate and Energy Source

Ingredients
Timothy Grass Meal, Soybean Hulls, Wheat Middlings, Soybean Meal, Cane Molasses, Sodium Bentonite, Soybean Oil, Salt, Lignin Sulfonate, Limestone, Yeast Culture (dehydrated), Vitamin E Supplement, Choline Chloride, Zinc Proteinate, Zinc Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Niacin, Copper Sulfate, Selenium Yeast, Vitamin A Supplement, Folic Acid, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Copper Proteinate, Riboflavin Supplement, Manganese Proteinate, Biotin, Manganous Oxide, Thiamine Mononitrate, Magnesium Sulfate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Sodium Selenite, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Cobalt Carbonate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Calcium Iodate

Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein min 14.00%
Crude Fat min 2.00%
Crude Fiber min 25.00%
Crude Fiber max 29.00%
Moisture max 10.00%
Calcium min 0.35%
Calcium max 0.85%
Phosphorus min 0.25%
Copper (min) 30 ppm
Vitamin A (min) 19,000 IU/kg
Vitamin D (min) 900 IU/kg
Vitamin E (min) 190 IU/kg


Thoughts? :wacko:

I've seen the tradition mentioned before... people actually feed their chinchillas on that junk? It's a bunch of byproducts, questionably digestable leftovers, and there's even animal protein in it. I wouldn't touch that with a 10' pole. The next one is marginally better ingredients wise. I'd really suggest the oxbow out of those but even the nutrena rabbit pellets would be better.

You do want to keep around a 1.5-2:1 Ca so about double as much calcium percentage as phosphorous percentage or you will cause other health problems. A timothy pellet would have less calcium and minerals than an alfalfa pellet unless of course they added a bunch back in. Definitely avoid legume (alfalfa, clover) hays and stick to grass hay only.

I'm not sure it's even something to consider given the lack of vegetation beyond hay in a chin's diet but oxalic acid content of other foods that would include dried herbs can impact calcium absorption. It's more a problem with something like a guinea pig that you feed mass amounts of vegetables to and so can ingest a lot of oxalic acid but some of the major herbs are the ones highest in oxalic acid and mentioned to use sparingly with guinea pigs. It might be worth checking any herb mixtures you feed against the usda nutrient database (google it, useful source if you use anything fed to humans for any animals) or the guinealynx.info oxalic acid charts.

Showed my husband the tradition and we were just commenting on the vitamins, minerals, and random stuff they have to add to it to make up for the poor quality ingredients. That could also be your problem since half the nutrition in that pellet is coming from basically vitamin/mineral pills instead of whole ingredients.

akane - Seriously? I think you need to research before you post. If I remember correctly, Jim Ritterspach (I'm sure you've heard of him) helped develop Tradition. JAGS, Ryerson's, Ritterspach, Becky West, and a whoooole bunch of others have been feeding Tradition for way, way longer than you have even thought about chinchillas. It is not junk, as their show results and health of their animals will prove.

I am not even going to acknowledge what akane said since its pure rubbish from a newbie who does not know the history of tradition and why the ingrediants are listed like that-its been discussed to death and its a great feed, I would feed it if it was more local.

That said, Oxbow guinea pig feed is IMO a good choice for a low calcium pellet, its what some vets recommend.

Timothy Grass Meal, Soybean Hulls, Wheat Middlings, Soybean Meal, Cane Molasses, Sodium Bentonite, Soybean Oil, Salt, Lignin Sulfonate, Limestone, Yeast Culture (dehydrated), L-Ascorbyl-2-Monophosphate (Vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Choline Chloride, Zinc Proteinate, Zinc Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Niacin, Copper Sulfate, Selenium Yeast, Vitamin A Supplement, Folic Acid, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Copper Proteinate, Riboflavin Supplement, Manganese Proteinate, Biotin, Manganous Oxide, Thiamine Mononitrate, Magnesium Sulfate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Sodium Selenite, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Cobalt Carbonate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Calcium Iodate

Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein (min) 14.00%
Crude Fat (min) 2.00%
Crude Fiber (min) 25.00%
Crude Fiber (max) 28.00%
Moisture (max) 10.00%
Calcium (min) 0.35%
Calcium (max) 0.85%
Phosphorus (min) 0.25%
Copper (min) 30 ppm
Vitamin A (min) 19,000 IU/kg
Ascorbic Acid (Vit C.) (min) 400 mg/kg
Vitamin D (min) 900 IU/kg
Vitamin E (min) 190 IU/kg

First to the original poster: Do you feed hay and have you had your water tested for ppm of Ca? Your problem may not be with the feed but with other sources.

Now as far as:
I've seen the tradition mentioned before... people actually feed their chinchillas on that junk? It's a bunch of byproducts, questionably digestable leftovers, and there's even animal protein in it. I wouldn't touch that with a 10' pole. The next one is marginally better ingredients wise. I'd really suggest the oxbow out of those but even the nutrena rabbit pellets would be better.

Tradition feed is one of the best feeds out there. It was developed by Jim Ritterspach who still controls the set formula which ingredients are not varied according to what is cheap today but is held to the formula no matter what the cost of the ingredient may be at the time of milling. If you can find this in any other chinchilla or rabbit feed I applaud you! It is also why the price changes on it almost every time its milled.

The reason the tag says byproducts and such is that they have to put something on the tag that covers whats in it with out giving out Jims proprietary formula and ingredients. The animal protein in it is a very low percentage of animal fat to help bind the pellet together.

To see how I really feel about feed tags and whats really in the bag I would highly recommend anyone truly interested in their animals nutrition read the thread I am posting a link to below. Read it all if you would like to learn about feed.


http://www.chins-n-hedgies.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38037

Wow...

Brittany, a timothy based pellet could be something you could try with Jameson. I've used a very similar pellet with chins like him with good results. Bear in mind that it is very low protein, with some chins this can mean changes with the fur and other things. In the short term, you could definitely switch him to the timmy based diet and see how he does.

It is not my intention to start a huge debate, nor to make people nervous about feeding any particular brand of pellets. I haven't been very active on the forum for the last two years, but anyone who remembers me knows that I go above and beyond to gurantee that my animals have the best quality of life.

With that being said I have had nothing but good results from Tradition pellets. My animals have thrived on the food, and I have no plans of switching my other animals. However, since Jameson has developed a stone Tradition is no longer the best pellet option for him (it is higher in calcium then other equally good options out there). In the last few weeks James has been put through two invasive procedures, both surgeries had multiple complications, and he almost died twice. Realistically neither my vet nor I expected him to make it, but thanks to my vet's persistence James is recovering better then we had hoped. It's nothing short of a miracle that this animal is still alive, and since we've made it this far I'm obligated to do everything in my power to prevent it from happening again. This means finding the most appropriate diet for this particular animal's special needs. I would greatly appreciate the wealth of knowledge this community can provide to help my vet and I devise the best plan for Jameson.

ticklechin said:

Oxbow guinea pig feed is IMO a good choice for a low calcium pellet, its what some vets recommend.

Timothy Grass Meal, Soybean Hulls, Wheat Middlings, Soybean Meal, Cane Molasses, Sodium Bentonite, Soybean Oil, Salt, Lignin Sulfonate, Limestone, Yeast Culture (dehydrated), L-Ascorbyl-2-Monophosphate (Vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Choline Chloride, Zinc Proteinate, Zinc Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Niacin, Copper Sulfate, Selenium Yeast, Vitamin A Supplement, Folic Acid, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Copper Proteinate, Riboflavin Supplement, Manganese Proteinate, Biotin, Manganous Oxide, Thiamine Mononitrate, Magnesium Sulfate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Sodium Selenite, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Cobalt Carbonate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Calcium Iodate

Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein (min) 14.00%
Crude Fat (min) 2.00%
Crude Fiber (min) 25.00%
Crude Fiber (max) 28.00%
Moisture (max) 10.00%
Calcium (min) 0.35%
Calcium (max) 0.85%
Phosphorus (min) 0.25%
Copper (min) 30 ppm
Vitamin A (min) 19,000 IU/kg
Ascorbic Acid (Vit C.) (min) 400 mg/kg
Vitamin D (min) 900 IU/kg
Vitamin E (min) 190 IU/kg

Click to expand...

Pam K.T. just posted on my facebook that she's been feeding this pellet to one of her chins who had a stone. Thanks for the advice, I'll bring it in to my vet.

jags said:

First to the original poster: Do you feed hay and have you had your water tested for ppm of Ca? Your problem may not be with the feed but with other sources.

Click to expand...

Jags, I free feed Oxbow Timothy Hay, with handful of alfalfa about once a month, and a tablespoon of nettle/red clover herbs about once a week. Obviously I will cut out the Alfalfa for this particucular animal. I need to look into if the herbs are still a good option for him.

In regards to the water, I have not had it tested. I was able to find this analysis from 2011, but I don't see any mention of calcium (the water quality data is on page 3) http://www.cityofoxford.org/sites/default/files/service_and_eng/12 CCR (FINAL 4).pdf

I know that calcium is an issue in our water, even with my pur filter I have to scrape calcium deposits off water bottles, and human dishes. Until this incident occured I didn't realize that it was an issue, we've lived with it for the last 4 years. After talking with my vet I started buying reverse osmosis bottled water for my entire household. The vet and I agree that the water is most likely a large contributor to his issues. Even though I've resolved this issue we feel like we should lower his calcium intake as much as possible in the rest of his diet.

AZChins said:

I've used a very similar pellet with chins like him with good results. Bear in mind that it is very low protein, with some chins this can mean changes with the fur and other things. In the short term, you could definitely switch him to the timmy based diet and see how he does.

Click to expand...

What other changes would be caused by low protein? Is there a way that I can supplement the protein without raising the calcium levels? What about an herbal supplement? What about a mixture of feeds?

Mostly the fur would start looking more sparse, I suspect it could cause issues in the body. Anything that you would give for extra protein is probably going to have added calcium, those seem to go together.

You could definitely mix feeds...the only problem with that is that the chin may enjoy the higher calcium food more and pick it out! I did that for years with some older girls of mine and they actually ate both pellets equally as much. Maybe mix in a half tablespoon of the higher calcium into two tablespoons of the lower? At least then he'll have to eat the lower calcium feed...well, provided that he is hungry enough and not super picky!

Did not mean to HyJack your thread just found the post on Tradition feed very lacking.

Just watch that his calcium level does not go to low by cutting it out in every way possible, with to low of a level of calcium the animal may go into calcium fits or seizures. Used to be a problem with chins before higher calcium levels were added to the feed.

As far as low protein feed as long as the ADF is good on it the animal should be quite healthy and live a long time. He will just slim down, fur will lack strength, sharpness of color and appear dull.

No worries Jags, it was good information. What is ADF? As long as he's healthy fur quality doesn't bother me, he's just a spoiled pet.

Jameson came home Wednesday night. He's on white fleece so I can monitor his urine, and even after he's completely healed I want to keep him quarantined for 4 weeks, because he was housed in a room with other hospitalized animals while at the vets. The vet and I decided to try a Tradition/Oxbow Guinea Pig blend (as long as James will eat it). He was constipated when I got him back, and didn't eat much his first night home. I've been supplementing 5-10ml CC per day. This morning I was rewarded with lots of small but moist poop, and he had eaten most of his hay. Very little appetite for pellets, but I'm hoping that will improve in time.

He has some occasional blood spotting in the urine, which my vet said is normal as he continues to heal. He isn't bothering his stitches (they come out Monday), and his entire genital area isn't red or swollen, so I believe it's healing just fine.

The ADF value refers to the cell wall portions of the forage that are made up of cellulose and lignin. These values are important because they relate to the ability of an animal to digest the forage. As ADF increases the ability to digest or the digestibility of the forage decreases. Acid detergent fiber (ADF): Fiber measurement extracted with acidic detergent in a technique employed to help appraise the quality of forages. Includes cellulose, lignin, ADIN, and acid-insoluble ash. ADF is highly correlated with cell wall digestibility. The higher the ADF, the lower the digestibility or available energy. Because ADF percentage of forages negatively relates to digestibility, ADF is used to calculate energy values. Low ADF forages are usually preferred, because it means higher net energy. As the plant matures, ADF increases and is less digestible by the animal.

I would not worry a bunch about not eating pellets as long as he is eating hay well, best thing for them. As time passes he should start eating pellets more.